Sacked RAF Liable to Call Up for 18 Years

[Melchett01]

So just what is an individual's reserve liability these days? If the Telegraph reporting is correct, Air Manning are doing yet more to endear themselves to people by sacking them and then trying to hold them to an 18 year reserve liability:

Sacked RAF airmen have accused the Ministry of Defence of double standards after being told they are liable for call up at any time over the next two decades despite being axed.

Sacked RAF liable to call up for 18 years - Telegraph

Once again, it does rather appear to be Defence on the cheap. To my simple mind, if you sack someone because that post no longer exists that is fine. To then hold that individual to a call up to return suggests that your reasons for sacking them in the first place are not valid because there appears to continue to be a requirement to fill that post or duty. Would that potentially count as unfair dismissal?

Is this yet more Manning incompetence - once you've gone we can't dick you around but we can make life uncomfortable? My boss is an ex Army desk officer; on more than one occassion he has stated that for all the Army's faults - and he is man enough to admit there are plenty - if APC Glasgow treated it's personnel in the way that Air Manning treats RAF personnel, the individuals in question would have rightly been fired and then fed to the wolves.

With that in mind, just what is the RAF's reserve liability these days? And what is the chance of enforcing it ... especially if they don't know where you are? And should they enforce it, what is the likelihood of a recalled individual actually being any use after equipment, procedures and regs have moved on? For me, once I'm gone, then I'm gone, letters marked OHMS returned to sender.

[salad-dodger]

For me, once I'm gone, then I'm gone, letters marked OHMS returned to sender.

like he said ^^^^^^^^^

[Pontius Navigator]

Would it make a difference if you had:

a. A small annual tax-free retainer,

b. A 2-week paid summer camp outside of school holidays and relevant to your job/trade,

c. Status, ie indulgence flights, access to cheap shopping, cheap haircuts, station messes, medical services, etc?

Oh I forgot, that would cost money . . .

Of course they could save some money by sacking another 1000 people which would provide for up to 26000 reserves.

[Dengue_Dude]

I actually applied for redundancy in 1993 and (fortunately) was accepted.

I left aged 43 but was still on the Reserve List until 55.

It completely sucks but they may well be within their rights. Really good for morale to remind everybody now though - another master stroke.

[A2QFI]

The first time I left the RAF I was required to resign my commission as I was working abroad. I got a snottogram from MOD telling me that I was " No longer entitled to use the rank or style of Flt Lt" which came in an envelope addressed to Flt Lt XXXXX (Ret'd) which was vaguely amusing. I wonder what the legalities are of recalling to service an individual with no rank? Where are Gilbert Blades and Son?

[cazatou]

If you become Resident overseas you are no longer liable for recall.

[A2QFI]

Thanks Cazatou! That's a relief after all the years that have passed since 1977!!!

[AGS Man]

Cazatou
When I first came out to KSA my reserve status dropped from 2 (which gave me a small annual sum) to 5 which didn't. There was some talk during Desert Shield of recalling some guys direct from BAe who were already in Kingdom but nothing developed on that.

[Wensleydale]

Slight thread drift....

I always thought that using retired rank was reserved for Sqn Ldr and above and that you couldn't use Flt Lt (Retired).... I stand by to be corrected.

W.

PS. If you got called up again, you could always fail the fitness test.

[air pig]

Friend on of mine, Squadron Leader PMRAFNS, promoted to rank not long before GW 1, operating theatre shift boss, came back to the Uk, closed theatres at Wroughton and Halton under the defence review in which we closed all the military hospitals. One morning received the interview with coffee and biscuits and was informed that he was being made redundant. No pension as he did not have enough PC service time after converting from an SSC.

Fast forward to GW2, his comments was that the 'b*stards would have to take him back in chains'

Seems we neve learn the lessons do we!

Regards

Air pig

[Stuff]

Would that potentially count as unfair dismissal?

In a civilian company - without a doubt. On the other hand, the military are exempt from the unfair dismissal part of employment law.

[L-H]

If an employee is made redundant, whether compulsory or voluntary, that is a premature release from the contract and therefore I would not expect any reserve liability. However, being the military and all that and that the MoD is exempt whole swathes of employement legislation stand by to standby.

I'm with the OP and SD, just return anything obvious back to sender. It's a known problem that manning haven't a clue where people are these days.

F*** 'em!

[Lima Juliet]

The length of time in the Regular Reserve varies on rank and length of service. You can't dodge the commitment unless you become an Expat or your next employer has a VERY good reason not to release you.

All covered under the relevant Sections of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 (RFA96) and it is legal and binding - unless you want to go 'thermonuclear' and become a conscientous (sp?) objector but then you forfeit other rights.

The good news is, as a Regular Reservist, you are entitled to free landing fees at MOD Airfields according to JSP360. Furthermore, from what I can see you would also be entitled to go adventurous training at public expense.

LJ

[cazatou]

Leon

Thank you for the confirmation in respect of Expats Reserve Liability.

[Impiger]

Harding Wrong (Again) - shock

Not sure why you all believe Mr Harding as usual his work is flawed (not least the figure 32,000 which is neither the 2015 position nor the 2020 one). Liability for recall for the Regular Reserve of Officers or the Regular Reserve of Airmen varies enormously by the date one joined (some are subject to RFA80 not RFA96) the terms of Service applying to you on exit (for many this is 9 years Regular plus a Reserve liability of 6 years). It is just plain wrong to suggest that all have a liability to age 55 or 18 years after leaving. The liability for recall is also subject to an appropriate call-out notice being signed by the Defence Secretary and under the terms of RFA96 for a true national emergency (so not just a bit of a NEO or a UN relief mission in Libya). I've never heard that the RN and Army can 'opt out' I don't believe this is true either as terms of Service are well controlled on a tri-Service basis (but I could be wrong).

To put this in perspective, HQ Air reckon there are about 10,000 airmen out there who have left within the last 6 years and for the opening stages of GW2, the last time we called-out the Regular Reserve, 100 were taken back in to Service. Not really the sword of Damocles Harding would have you believe it is.

But if you're worried about this don't listen to rumour and ill informed journalists - phone first your own desk officer or if you have left already HQ Air policy staffs and get the real picture as it applies to you - as I said there are several different sets of circumstances out there.

[CRM Monkey]

You can use your previous rank as long as you made Flt Lt, you don't even need to use the suffix Retd although that is normal

How to address Retired Officers of The RAF - Forms of Address by Profession, Royal Air Force

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

If the letter ever comes I think they'll find I've just splintered my pancreas. I seem to remember from way back that they only expect a response rate of something like 40% anyway? Always happy to be be part of the majority.

[L J R]

.....and the day you get 'back in' is the day you fail the fitness test. What do they do then??? pay you for 4 months getting fit (with a view to fail again of course)...?

[baffman]

I've never heard that the RN and Army can 'opt out' I don't believe this is true either as terms of Service are well controlled on a tri-Service basis (but I could be wrong).

I don't know the legal basis [i.e. for WAIVING reserve liability], but for the current round of redundancies the MoD has clearly stated in the relevant DIN that as far as the Army redundancies are concerned, only commissioned officers will be subject to reserve liability.

The Naval Service position, however, appears to be the same as the RAF's.

Reserve liability after redundancy? | from BAFF - British Armed Forces Federation

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Cazatou, Leon - Do you know if 'ex-pat' residency include Commonwealth countries?
Moving to Canada hardly counts as 'turncoat'.
Also, since the Head of State is the same, am I now liable for Canadian Reserve Service?

In practice, I would have thought only Intel and Medics are liable to call up. Thoughts anyone?