68th Anniversary of the Nuremberg Raid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cheshire, California, Geneva, and Paris
Age: 67
Posts: 867
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
68th Anniversary of the Nuremberg Raid
Ladies and Gentlemen.
Tomorrow (Friday) will be the 68th anniversary of the disastrous raid on Nuremberg in which RAF Bomber Command lost 108 aircraft. Each aircraft had seven young men on board who were the flower of the youth of Britain and her Commonwealth.
I shall lay some flowers at the memorial garden site at RAF Snaith in Yorkshire, the home of 51 Squadron who lost six aircraft that night out of fifteen sent on the raid and on the card with the flowers will be the words Thank you for my future from an "After the War" kid.
I am reminded of the words of US General George S Patton who said "Do not mourn these men, but just thank God that such men lived" and tomorrow evening I shall raise a glass in their memory.
Tony Fallows
Cheshire
Tomorrow (Friday) will be the 68th anniversary of the disastrous raid on Nuremberg in which RAF Bomber Command lost 108 aircraft. Each aircraft had seven young men on board who were the flower of the youth of Britain and her Commonwealth.
I shall lay some flowers at the memorial garden site at RAF Snaith in Yorkshire, the home of 51 Squadron who lost six aircraft that night out of fifteen sent on the raid and on the card with the flowers will be the words Thank you for my future from an "After the War" kid.
I am reminded of the words of US General George S Patton who said "Do not mourn these men, but just thank God that such men lived" and tomorrow evening I shall raise a glass in their memory.
Tony Fallows
Cheshire
Last edited by DC10RealMan; 29th Mar 2012 at 11:22.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: n/a
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Relative of mine was killed along with his crew on that raid. After all their training it was only their second mission. They are buried in Hannover.
Oddly I spent a fair chunk of my carear flying to and from Nuremburg (at night) and having spent many days there it is a city I have great affection for.
Oddly I spent a fair chunk of my carear flying to and from Nuremburg (at night) and having spent many days there it is a city I have great affection for.
Some years ago I had the privilege of being invited by my friend, P/O 'Dick' Starkey, to a 106 Sqn reunion at the Petwood Hotel in Woodhall Spa.
Dick was piloting 'Q' Queenie on the Nuremberg raid and was shot down, Dick survived, five of the crew perished, it was his 22nd and last op.
On the way to the Petwood we stopped by the old RAF Metheringam airfield that Dick had taken off from and as we stood looking down the remains of the runway, I could only wonder at the courage of those young men facing death night after night.
Brave Men
Dick was piloting 'Q' Queenie on the Nuremberg raid and was shot down, Dick survived, five of the crew perished, it was his 22nd and last op.
On the way to the Petwood we stopped by the old RAF Metheringam airfield that Dick had taken off from and as we stood looking down the remains of the runway, I could only wonder at the courage of those young men facing death night after night.
Brave Men
Last edited by OwnNav; 31st Mar 2012 at 07:34.
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Brize
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
101 Sqn, as the part of the 'EW countermeasures' aspect of the raid, launched 26 ABC Lancaster aircraft from Ludford Magna, each with an 8 man crew.
7 aircraft failed to return.
7 aircraft failed to return.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,563
Likes: 0
Received 45 Likes
on
30 Posts
2012 is a year of significant anniversaries:
next month sees the 70th anniversary of the Augsburg Raid;
just had the 30th anniverary of Black Buck;
end of the year sees 50 years since the Cuban Missile Crisis;
perhaps the most significant - 100 years of British military aviation with the RFC formed 100 years ago.
next month sees the 70th anniversary of the Augsburg Raid;
just had the 30th anniverary of Black Buck;
end of the year sees 50 years since the Cuban Missile Crisis;
perhaps the most significant - 100 years of British military aviation with the RFC formed 100 years ago.
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: leeds
Age: 68
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire?
Are these events being run by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire? I believe there are 2 ex-RAF guys working on that project . Looks like they are doing a good job.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cheshire, California, Geneva, and Paris
Age: 67
Posts: 867
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am sure that the founders of the Aviation Heritage Centre at East Kirkby are aware of the significance of tomorrow nights anniversary as their elder brother who was a Flight Engineer with a Royal Canadian Air Force squadron was killed in the raid.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,563
Likes: 0
Received 45 Likes
on
30 Posts
Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire (AHL) are indeed aware and have a program of events organised - look them up on their web-site (Google is your friend).
(Note - this organisation is not the Aviation Heritage Centre at East Kirkby. AHL coordinates activities of 12 aviation heritage sites around the Lincoln area (including East Kirkby) and promotes these sites to the tourist industry. They are doing a splendid job - one hopes that their lottery finding will be renewed next year).
(Note - this organisation is not the Aviation Heritage Centre at East Kirkby. AHL coordinates activities of 12 aviation heritage sites around the Lincoln area (including East Kirkby) and promotes these sites to the tourist industry. They are doing a splendid job - one hopes that their lottery finding will be renewed next year).
Gentleman Aviator
perhaps the most significant - 100 years of British military aviation with the RFC formed 100 years ago.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,563
Likes: 0
Received 45 Likes
on
30 Posts
The RFC is no longer with us - the Central Flying School (also 100 this year) most certainly is!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 786
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The raid should never have taken place in those clear conditions – Harris demonstrated a callous disregard for the airmen and well deserved being called “butcher Harris”.
It is even worse if you consider the strategy dictated to him by Churchill, this snippet in Wikipaedia about the “dehousing” advised by Lindemann, Churchill's mate:
“Following the Air Ministry Area bombing directive on 12 February 1942, Lindemann presented in a paper on "Dehousing" to Churchill on 30 March 1942, which calculated the effects of area bombardment by a massive bomber force of German cities to break the spirit of the people.[15]
His proposal that "bombing must be directed to working class houses. Middle class houses have to much space round them, so are bound to waste bombs" changed accepted conventions of limiting civilian casualties in wartime. "It should be emphasized that the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories."”
I wonder how many, if any, of those brave young RAF men knew of the main aim of their mission? I sincerely doubt that Englishmen of the time would have participated if they had known the truth – at least I hope that they would not have. A wicked waste for both peoples.
It is even worse if you consider the strategy dictated to him by Churchill, this snippet in Wikipaedia about the “dehousing” advised by Lindemann, Churchill's mate:
“Following the Air Ministry Area bombing directive on 12 February 1942, Lindemann presented in a paper on "Dehousing" to Churchill on 30 March 1942, which calculated the effects of area bombardment by a massive bomber force of German cities to break the spirit of the people.[15]
His proposal that "bombing must be directed to working class houses. Middle class houses have to much space round them, so are bound to waste bombs" changed accepted conventions of limiting civilian casualties in wartime. "It should be emphasized that the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories."”
I wonder how many, if any, of those brave young RAF men knew of the main aim of their mission? I sincerely doubt that Englishmen of the time would have participated if they had known the truth – at least I hope that they would not have. A wicked waste for both peoples.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 59
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From Middlebrook and Everitt's book, The Bomber Command War Diaries - 1939 - 1945
30/31 March 1944
Nuremberg
This would normally have been the moon stand-down period for the Main Force, but a raid to the distant target of Nuremberg was planned on the basis of an early forecast that there would be a protective high cloud on the outward route, when the moon would be up, but the target area would be clear for ground-marked bombing. A Met Flight Mosquito carried out a reconnaissance and reported that the protective cloud was unlikely to be present and that there would be cloud over the target, but the raid was not cancelled.
795 aircraft were despatched – 572 Lancasters, 214 Halifaxes and 9 Mosquitoes. The German controller ignored all the diversions and assembled his fighters at 2 radio beacons which happened to be astride the route to Nuremberg. The first fighters appeared just before the bombers reached the Belgian border and a fierce battle in the moonlight lasted for the next hour. 82 bombers were lost on the outward route and near the target. The action was much reduced on the return flight, when most of the German fighters had to land, but 95 bombers were lost in all – 64 Lancasters and 31 Halifaxes, 11.9 per cent of the force despatched. It was the biggest Bomber Command loss of the war.
Most of the returning crews reported that they had bombed Nuremberg but subsequent research showed that approximately 120 aircraft had bombed Schweinfurt, 50 miles north-west of Nuremberg. This mistake was a result of badly forecast winds causing navigational difficulties. 2 Pathfinder aircraft dropped markers at Schweinfurt. Much of the bombing in the Schweinfurt area fell outside the town and only 2 people were killed in that area.
The main raid at Nuremberg was a failure. The city was covered by thick cloud and a fierce cross wind which developed on the final approach to the target caused many Pathfinder aircraft to mark too far to the east. A 10-mile long creep back also developed into the countryside to the north of Nuremberg. Both Pathfinders and Main Force aircraft were under heavy fighter attack throughout the raid. Little damage was caused in Nuremberg; 69 people were killed in the cty and surrounding villages.
Nuremberg
This would normally have been the moon stand-down period for the Main Force, but a raid to the distant target of Nuremberg was planned on the basis of an early forecast that there would be a protective high cloud on the outward route, when the moon would be up, but the target area would be clear for ground-marked bombing. A Met Flight Mosquito carried out a reconnaissance and reported that the protective cloud was unlikely to be present and that there would be cloud over the target, but the raid was not cancelled.
795 aircraft were despatched – 572 Lancasters, 214 Halifaxes and 9 Mosquitoes. The German controller ignored all the diversions and assembled his fighters at 2 radio beacons which happened to be astride the route to Nuremberg. The first fighters appeared just before the bombers reached the Belgian border and a fierce battle in the moonlight lasted for the next hour. 82 bombers were lost on the outward route and near the target. The action was much reduced on the return flight, when most of the German fighters had to land, but 95 bombers were lost in all – 64 Lancasters and 31 Halifaxes, 11.9 per cent of the force despatched. It was the biggest Bomber Command loss of the war.
Most of the returning crews reported that they had bombed Nuremberg but subsequent research showed that approximately 120 aircraft had bombed Schweinfurt, 50 miles north-west of Nuremberg. This mistake was a result of badly forecast winds causing navigational difficulties. 2 Pathfinder aircraft dropped markers at Schweinfurt. Much of the bombing in the Schweinfurt area fell outside the town and only 2 people were killed in that area.
The main raid at Nuremberg was a failure. The city was covered by thick cloud and a fierce cross wind which developed on the final approach to the target caused many Pathfinder aircraft to mark too far to the east. A 10-mile long creep back also developed into the countryside to the north of Nuremberg. Both Pathfinders and Main Force aircraft were under heavy fighter attack throughout the raid. Little damage was caused in Nuremberg; 69 people were killed in the cty and surrounding villages.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 59
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Amongst those killed that night was Fg Off Cyril Joe Barton
The following details are given in the London Gazette of June 23rd 1944 : On the night of March 30th 1944 Flying Officer Barton was captain and pilot of a Halifax Aircraft attacking Nuremburg which was severely damaged by the enemy en route, one engine, the machine gun and the inter- communication system being put out of action. The navigator, air bomber and wireless operator, mis-interpreting a signal left the aircraft by parachute. Although in great peril in a damaged plane and without navigational aid, Flying Officer Barton completed his mission, releasing the bombs on the target himself. Then, despite leakages from the two petrol tanks, for 4 and half hours he flew the crippled plane over heavily defended territory against strong head winds and succeeded in crossing the English coast only 90 miles north of his base, his petrol almost exhausted. Before a suitable landing place could be found the port engine stopped. On the one remaining engine Flying Officer Barton made a valiant attempt to land clear of the houses over which he was flying, but crashed. He lost his life, but the other three members of his crew survived. In gallantly completing his last mission in the face of almost impossible odds this officer displayed unsurpassed courage and devotion to duty.
WK:
He may have acquired that nickname, and it did indeed relate to his aircrew rather than those they bombed, but he was respected and admired by them generally, and they resent more than anything the way he was ostracised by not being enobled, alone among his peers, after victory was finally achieved.
Walter, may I respectfully suggest that if you wish to start an argument along the lines of "Was the Allied Bomber Offensive of WWII morally justified?", or some such, that you start a thread of your own. This one is for those who wish to post their respectful thanks for the sacrifice of those who gave their lives in this raid, and for the rest of the 55,573 who did likewise. It would appear that you do not feel the urge to do so. So be it.
The raid should never have taken place in those clear conditions – Harris demonstrated a callous disregard for the airmen and well deserved being called “butcher Harris”.
Walter, may I respectfully suggest that if you wish to start an argument along the lines of "Was the Allied Bomber Offensive of WWII morally justified?", or some such, that you start a thread of your own. This one is for those who wish to post their respectful thanks for the sacrifice of those who gave their lives in this raid, and for the rest of the 55,573 who did likewise. It would appear that you do not feel the urge to do so. So be it.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: n/a
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Middlebrook's book on Nuremberg is a tour de force and I commend it to any of the assembly here as an excellent work.
My great uncle's aircraft departed in 1 hr 57 minutes from now, overloaded and inexperienced.
My great uncle's aircraft departed in 1 hr 57 minutes from now, overloaded and inexperienced.
phil9560,
Oh shut up phil9560.
Walters post makes perfect sense to anyone trying to work out WHY there has never been a campaign medal for Bomber Command and why there was a sense of unease about the whole thing from 1944 onwards.
Harris wasn't enobled because he lacked one thing, the ability to do as he was told by his superiors in the Air Ministry, the Directorate of Bomber operations and the Chief of the Air Staff.
Oh shut up phil9560.
Walters post makes perfect sense to anyone trying to work out WHY there has never been a campaign medal for Bomber Command and why there was a sense of unease about the whole thing from 1944 onwards.
Harris wasn't enobled because he lacked one thing, the ability to do as he was told by his superiors in the Air Ministry, the Directorate of Bomber operations and the Chief of the Air Staff.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,563
Likes: 0
Received 45 Likes
on
30 Posts
Harris wasn't enobled because he lacked one thing, the ability to do as he was told by his superiors in the Air Ministry, the Directorate of Bomber operations and the Chief of the Air Staff.
Proone:
Er no, he wasn't ennobled because the Attlee Government thought that it would send the wrong message to our new allies, the Germans, and to our new potential enemies, the Russians. As to his superiors in the Air Ministry, they were as treacherous as Churchill in disowning the man and his Command that had carried out their orders. He carried out their directives to the best of his, and more importantly his aircrews', practical ability.
Sir Stafford Cripps and others may have had their qualms about the effects of large scale Strategic Bombing raids against German cities on the inhabitants but Harris was more concerned with taking the war to Germany, the only British Commander able to do that to any appreciable extent. Of course you can despair at the destruction to historic cities, rage at the loss of life, civilian and military, on both sides. I do too. It's called war, and once you have entered into it you must conduct it to the fullest extent possible until victory is yours, lest it slips from your grasp. It is only because that victory was won following Kursk and D-Day, both arguably only possible because of the "Battle of Germany" that preceded them, that we can indulge in this endless argument. I would prefer though that it had not been started with such heartless abandoning of those who had fought in Bomber Command, not least of all by other senior Air Officers, as you rightly point out. I suppose though, given the treatment of Dowding and Park earlier by them, that we should not really be so surprised.
Having said all that can we please have this argued out elsewhere? This is a thread honouring duty and sacrifice, not the rerunning of WWII.
Harris wasn't enobled because he lacked one thing, the ability to do as he was told by his superiors in the Air Ministry, the Directorate of Bomber operations and the Chief of the Air Staff.
Sir Stafford Cripps and others may have had their qualms about the effects of large scale Strategic Bombing raids against German cities on the inhabitants but Harris was more concerned with taking the war to Germany, the only British Commander able to do that to any appreciable extent. Of course you can despair at the destruction to historic cities, rage at the loss of life, civilian and military, on both sides. I do too. It's called war, and once you have entered into it you must conduct it to the fullest extent possible until victory is yours, lest it slips from your grasp. It is only because that victory was won following Kursk and D-Day, both arguably only possible because of the "Battle of Germany" that preceded them, that we can indulge in this endless argument. I would prefer though that it had not been started with such heartless abandoning of those who had fought in Bomber Command, not least of all by other senior Air Officers, as you rightly point out. I suppose though, given the treatment of Dowding and Park earlier by them, that we should not really be so surprised.
Having said all that can we please have this argued out elsewhere? This is a thread honouring duty and sacrifice, not the rerunning of WWII.