"The Great Falkland Gamble"...
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Not seeing things:
they were loaded at Ascension and cross-decked to Hermes from 18th May.
It was a lightweight fast moving programme, although I did pick up on a few things.
The one outstanding question was around the Argentine bombs. I'd always been under the impression they were dropped too low to properly fuse, however the bomb disposal chap on the programme last night suggested that the bomb dropped on RFA Sir Galahad in San Carlos that failed to explode was properly fused, and would have gone off if knocked. So if fused, why didn't it go off, and was this also the case with the other bombs? In other words, was the low level fusing more complex than perhaps previously presented?
they were loaded at Ascension and cross-decked to Hermes from 18th May.
It was a lightweight fast moving programme, although I did pick up on a few things.
The one outstanding question was around the Argentine bombs. I'd always been under the impression they were dropped too low to properly fuse, however the bomb disposal chap on the programme last night suggested that the bomb dropped on RFA Sir Galahad in San Carlos that failed to explode was properly fused, and would have gone off if knocked. So if fused, why didn't it go off, and was this also the case with the other bombs? In other words, was the low level fusing more complex than perhaps previously presented?
Interesting prog, but definitely a bit lightweight.
The point about 3Cdo vs 5Bde was that from long experience in Norway and elsewhere, 3Cdo Bde included the Cdo Logs Regt as a dedicated integral asset. They were already overstretched in SouthLant, particularly when asked to look after the two Para Bn augmenting 3Cdo, which is why the OC had a sense of humour failure when asked to support 5Bde as well.
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that as a direct result of this experience, what was 5 Airborne subsequently got some sort of integral Logs formation (not Compo-rats!) in the post Op lessons-learned flurry.
Funny that the prog didn't mention lack of AEW as a factor (or if it did, I missed it).
The point about 3Cdo vs 5Bde was that from long experience in Norway and elsewhere, 3Cdo Bde included the Cdo Logs Regt as a dedicated integral asset. They were already overstretched in SouthLant, particularly when asked to look after the two Para Bn augmenting 3Cdo, which is why the OC had a sense of humour failure when asked to support 5Bde as well.
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that as a direct result of this experience, what was 5 Airborne subsequently got some sort of integral Logs formation (not Compo-rats!) in the post Op lessons-learned flurry.
Funny that the prog didn't mention lack of AEW as a factor (or if it did, I missed it).
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I did not hear any mention of lack of AEW, but did here that the UK went to 'war' with Argentina in the very first sentence of the show!
I don't seem to remember us declaring war, which is why it was called a conflict.
I don't seem to remember us declaring war, which is why it was called a conflict.
Postman Plod,
I thought the same as you so I wonder if it's a terminology issue. Perhaps due to the low release altitude, the bombs didn't have time to ARM, whilst the fusing mechanism was fully functional.
I thought the same as you so I wonder if it's a terminology issue. Perhaps due to the low release altitude, the bombs didn't have time to ARM, whilst the fusing mechanism was fully functional.
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Courtney.
The weapon would have two mechanisms within the fuse, the rotary one being an interlock for the second - both required for detonation. What the chap was saying was that the rotary one had done its job (i.e. had been dropped at sufficient speed for the vane to rotate the correct amount of times at the correct rate).
The other section of the fuse would have a timing delay, triggered at release, after which it would need to sense the deceleration of a hit. Drop from too low and weapon hits, then arms, no deceleration, no explosion.
So he was right. It was sat there waiting to hit something, unaware that it already had. (Not that I suspect bombs can muse to themselves!)
The weapon would have two mechanisms within the fuse, the rotary one being an interlock for the second - both required for detonation. What the chap was saying was that the rotary one had done its job (i.e. had been dropped at sufficient speed for the vane to rotate the correct amount of times at the correct rate).
The other section of the fuse would have a timing delay, triggered at release, after which it would need to sense the deceleration of a hit. Drop from too low and weapon hits, then arms, no deceleration, no explosion.
So he was right. It was sat there waiting to hit something, unaware that it already had. (Not that I suspect bombs can muse to themselves!)
I was left at the end wondering what ''the gamble' actually was. All wars are inherantly a gamble, in that theres no guarantee that the opposition will take things on your terms and lose.
Couiple of things came up for me. The number of bombs that actually struck home was higher than I was aware.
Capt Salt was directly apportioned blame for the loss of Sheffeild. Any coincidence that he's departed hence they could say what they like?
Couiple of things came up for me. The number of bombs that actually struck home was higher than I was aware.
Capt Salt was directly apportioned blame for the loss of Sheffeild. Any coincidence that he's departed hence they could say what they like?
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The clue re 5 Bde was in the name. 5 Airborne Brigade and they were trained to be inserted by air. As a Herc man, we trained with the Bde for their initial insertion followed by a resupply drop within 24 hours and other resupply flights as required. In other words 5 ABN Bde was a light-weight mobile force which relied on re-supply. The Falklands did not present this scenario. As an infantry Bde, it did its best, like all British forces end up doing when the chips are down.
I saw the whole prog and thought that it was a party political broadcast on behalf of 3 Cdo Bde. I don't think rehearsing inter-service rivalry by senior officers on TV is a good way to behave. As for moaning about the lack of a carrier now, the man needs to understand that there is an airfield there. He should have highlighted the need to defend that and the forces on the islands now rather than harping on about the carrier.
Can anybody throw any light on what effort it took to protect the carrier force in 1982 and what would have happened if a carrier had been badly damaged or, heaven forbid, sunk. The prog avoided this; perhaps this was the biggest gamble!
The RAF did not get a mention - just a cursory reference to the one Chinook that got away from the Atlantic Conveyor. That Chinook did sterling work in transporting troops and equipment but why let the facts get in the way of the truth.
Just as an aside, my longest flight during Op Corporate was 26 hrs and 5 mins.
I saw the whole prog and thought that it was a party political broadcast on behalf of 3 Cdo Bde. I don't think rehearsing inter-service rivalry by senior officers on TV is a good way to behave. As for moaning about the lack of a carrier now, the man needs to understand that there is an airfield there. He should have highlighted the need to defend that and the forces on the islands now rather than harping on about the carrier.
Can anybody throw any light on what effort it took to protect the carrier force in 1982 and what would have happened if a carrier had been badly damaged or, heaven forbid, sunk. The prog avoided this; perhaps this was the biggest gamble!
The RAF did not get a mention - just a cursory reference to the one Chinook that got away from the Atlantic Conveyor. That Chinook did sterling work in transporting troops and equipment but why let the facts get in the way of the truth.
Just as an aside, my longest flight during Op Corporate was 26 hrs and 5 mins.
About the Argentine Bombs fusing, the 1000 lbs Mk17 british made bombs were used by the English Electric Canberra for mid and high level bombing.
So the biggest problem for the armorers was to fuse those bombs for extreme low level bombing.
The Argentine Navy had at that time two Type 42 Destroyers, ARA Hercules and ARA Santisima Trinidad.
We had also knowledge of the Sea Cat capabilities, the ARA General Belgrano was equipped with Sea Cat launchers and the Argentine Marines had the Tiger Cat for air defence.
The Navy and the Air Force knew what was capabilities of the UK radars and the understanding of having to fly very low to avoid the radar detection.
The Argentine Navy Aviation was using American 500 lbs bombs Mk82 Snakeye.
Those were used by the MD Skyhawk A-4Q and the sinking of the HMS Ardent is a proved of properly launch height of around 200 ft/60 mts was needed for exploding inside the ship.
Pilots had the selfdefence tendecy of extreme low flying not giving the proper launching parameters.
Anyway...it wasn't a Picnic at all for anyone...
So the biggest problem for the armorers was to fuse those bombs for extreme low level bombing.
The Argentine Navy had at that time two Type 42 Destroyers, ARA Hercules and ARA Santisima Trinidad.
We had also knowledge of the Sea Cat capabilities, the ARA General Belgrano was equipped with Sea Cat launchers and the Argentine Marines had the Tiger Cat for air defence.
The Navy and the Air Force knew what was capabilities of the UK radars and the understanding of having to fly very low to avoid the radar detection.
The Argentine Navy Aviation was using American 500 lbs bombs Mk82 Snakeye.
Those were used by the MD Skyhawk A-4Q and the sinking of the HMS Ardent is a proved of properly launch height of around 200 ft/60 mts was needed for exploding inside the ship.
Pilots had the selfdefence tendecy of extreme low flying not giving the proper launching parameters.
Anyway...it wasn't a Picnic at all for anyone...
Last edited by cosmiccomet; 15th Mar 2012 at 13:19.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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the man needs to understand that there is an airfield there.
However a limited supply of very smart ammo can only deal with a limited amout of incoming. It's called the numbers game. After those bullets are used it is game over and you are no longer defending but trying to work out how to retake.
About the Argentine Bombs fusing, the 1000 lbs Mk17 british made bombs were used by the English Electric Canberra for mid and high level bombing.
So the biggest problem for the armorers was to fuse those bombs for extreme low level bombing.
The Argentine Navy had at that time two Type 42 Destroyers, ARA Hercules and ARA Santisima Trinidad.
We had also knowledge of the Sea Cat capabilities, the ARA General Belgrano was equipped with Sea Cat lunchers and the Argentine Marines had the Tiger Cat for air defence.
The Navy and the Air Force knew what was capabilities of the UK radars and the understanding of having to fly very low to avoid the radar detection.
The Argentine Navy Aviation was using American 500 lbs bombs Mk82 Snakeye.
Those were used by the MD Skyhawk A-4Q and the sinking of the HMS Ardent is a proved of properly lunch height of around 200 ft/60 mts was needed for exploding inside the ship.
Pilots had the selfdefence tendecy of extreme low flying not giving the proper lunching parameters.
Anyway...it wasn't a Picnic at all for anyone...
You are having a laugh, right?
So the biggest problem for the armorers was to fuse those bombs for extreme low level bombing.
The Argentine Navy had at that time two Type 42 Destroyers, ARA Hercules and ARA Santisima Trinidad.
We had also knowledge of the Sea Cat capabilities, the ARA General Belgrano was equipped with Sea Cat lunchers and the Argentine Marines had the Tiger Cat for air defence.
The Navy and the Air Force knew what was capabilities of the UK radars and the understanding of having to fly very low to avoid the radar detection.
The Argentine Navy Aviation was using American 500 lbs bombs Mk82 Snakeye.
Those were used by the MD Skyhawk A-4Q and the sinking of the HMS Ardent is a proved of properly lunch height of around 200 ft/60 mts was needed for exploding inside the ship.
Pilots had the selfdefence tendecy of extreme low flying not giving the proper lunching parameters.
Anyway...it wasn't a Picnic at all for anyone...
You are having a laugh, right?
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Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin
You are having a laugh, right?
Tell you what, why don't you write a lucid, grammatically correct, and relevant article in Spanish, and we'll get a native Spanish speaker to pick you up on all your spelling errors?
Really? You think?
My Spanish is far too rusty to even try for grammatical correctness. However, that particular turn of phrase was too hard to pass by. I didn't even mention the Kipper fleet.
Some people have no sense of humour.......
My Spanish is far too rusty to even try for grammatical correctness. However, that particular turn of phrase was too hard to pass by. I didn't even mention the Kipper fleet.
Some people have no sense of humour.......
Yes, I am not an English native speaker and sorry for the bad spelling.
Thanks for the correction...I could find my mistake and corrected it.
About the bombs, the Argentine Air Force used the Spanish 500 lbs BR250 bombs.
Two BR250 were loaded in the IAI Dagger A (Israeli copy of the Mirage V).
The fuses were,
*Super Super Quick, detonating on impact.
*Kappa E 2,8 sec fuse delay.
The HMS Plymouth was attacked by 5 IA Dagger A on June 8th and hitted by 4 BR250 bombs and any of them exploded.
She was really lucky that day.
Thanks for the correction...I could find my mistake and corrected it.
About the bombs, the Argentine Air Force used the Spanish 500 lbs BR250 bombs.
Two BR250 were loaded in the IAI Dagger A (Israeli copy of the Mirage V).
The fuses were,
*Super Super Quick, detonating on impact.
*Kappa E 2,8 sec fuse delay.
The HMS Plymouth was attacked by 5 IA Dagger A on June 8th and hitted by 4 BR250 bombs and any of them exploded.
She was really lucky that day.
Last edited by cosmiccomet; 15th Mar 2012 at 21:11.
cosmiccomet wrote
The Israeli's weren't copying the Nesher (Mirage), but simply assembling them from knockdown kits supplied by France according to Gene Salvay. Gene Salvay an engineer with Rockwell and involved in the Kfir design revealed the details in Wings magazine during 2000.
Salvay revealed that he was the Chief designer of the Kfir (Mirage variant fitted with J79 engine). The embargo on the Mirage 5Js that ended up being absorbed by the French Air Force was just a show. The Mirage 5 in kit form were being supplied by the French through the back door as fast as US transports could deliver them.
IAI Nesher 501 on display in Israel has French manufacture plates.
Photos: Dassault Mirage 5J (Nesher) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
David Lednicer inspected the ID plate. Link to image.
File:M5Jplate.jpg - Scramble
David Lednicer who took the image also knew Gene Salvay and spoke to him in a telephone conversation to confirm the French supplied kit story.
MiG-21 combat record? - rec.aviation.military | Google Groups
Falklands/Argentine Aircraft - rec.aviation.military | Google Groups
Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Nesher
They story generates a fair bit of controversy. It would be interesting to see the construction plates of the Argentine Daggers?
IA Dagger A (Israeli copy of the Mirage V)
Salvay revealed that he was the Chief designer of the Kfir (Mirage variant fitted with J79 engine). The embargo on the Mirage 5Js that ended up being absorbed by the French Air Force was just a show. The Mirage 5 in kit form were being supplied by the French through the back door as fast as US transports could deliver them.
IAI Nesher 501 on display in Israel has French manufacture plates.
Photos: Dassault Mirage 5J (Nesher) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
David Lednicer inspected the ID plate. Link to image.
File:M5Jplate.jpg - Scramble
Despite the official story that this is an IAI Nesher, a check of the aircraft ID plates in the wheel wells reveals that this is really the first production Mirage 5J. On display in the Israel Air Force Museum.
MiG-21 combat record? - rec.aviation.military | Google Groups
Falklands/Argentine Aircraft - rec.aviation.military | Google Groups
Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Nesher
They story generates a fair bit of controversy. It would be interesting to see the construction plates of the Argentine Daggers?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
"Sense a deceleration" implies a sophisticated fusing system with possibly a mecury switch. More likely it was an impact pistol but because of the low trajectory had a graze impact which was an insufficiently strong impact to function. I grant you that not impacting would lead to a lack of decelaration so it is a bit of semantics.
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Alberto2
Channel 5 have withdrawn the program from Channel 5 - you can now only get it on their website at The Great Falklands Gamble: Revealed | Revealed | Channel 5
It needs Flash and Adobe Air to play
It will also be copy protected to expire after a certain time, and the site is restricted to UK only
However if you install this software Expat Shield
you will be able to set up a VPN which will make it seem that yo have a UK IP address and enable you to access the site
Channel 5 have withdrawn the program from Channel 5 - you can now only get it on their website at The Great Falklands Gamble: Revealed | Revealed | Channel 5
It needs Flash and Adobe Air to play
It will also be copy protected to expire after a certain time, and the site is restricted to UK only
However if you install this software Expat Shield
you will be able to set up a VPN which will make it seem that yo have a UK IP address and enable you to access the site