"The Great Falkland Gamble"...
5Bde getting a bit of a pasting...
anyone know of any decent Argentine perspectives (apart from Middlebrook, i've already got that) - or indeed Soviet ones?
be very interesting to see what the Sov's made of the whole thing...
anyone know of any decent Argentine perspectives (apart from Middlebrook, i've already got that) - or indeed Soviet ones?
be very interesting to see what the Sov's made of the whole thing...
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
CC, I am expecting Air War South Atlantic by Price and Ethell soon. Their technique is parallel stories. I don't know if it will go into more details.
For a partial explanation of the Soviet view see this site:Soviets in Falklands / Malvinas
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500N
In a nutshell - from the programme's point of view
Unequipped, untrained for the conditions, and unfit.
No supply chain, no engineers, no artillery and no knowledge of what they were expected to do.
In fact no plan from on high of what to do with them when they arrived.
PS -its available online at 5 on demand at
The Great Falklands Gamble: Revealed | Revealed | Channel 5
Can you access that in Oz?
In a nutshell - from the programme's point of view
Unequipped, untrained for the conditions, and unfit.
No supply chain, no engineers, no artillery and no knowledge of what they were expected to do.
In fact no plan from on high of what to do with them when they arrived.
PS -its available online at 5 on demand at
The Great Falklands Gamble: Revealed | Revealed | Channel 5
Can you access that in Oz?
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Milo
No, can't see it from here.
I like this
"among them Major-General Julian Thompson, reveal how appalling weather, overstretched British air defences, poor communications and even incompetence sometimes stacked the odds heavily against the British. Veterans of some of the bloodiest battles talk us through the fighting. Their personal accounts reveal how professionalism and sheer courage overcame these problems."
Another eample of the British overcoming against the odds.
"500N
In a nutshell - from the programme's point of view
Unequipped, untrained for the conditions, and unfit.
No supply chain, no engineers, no artillery and no knowledge of what they were expected to do.
In fact no plan from on high of what to do with them when they arrived."
Funny how I was just watching a video on youtube of the events leading up to the Falklands surrender and a fair bit of footage of British artillery being fired.'
"no plan from on high of what to do with them when they arrived"
Are we talking Gov't / HQ back in the UK or the Commander of the taskforce ? Seems strange that they say this considering they landed at San Carlos and walked all the way to Stanley.
"Unequipped" - well doesn't every war start with the troops being Unequipped ?
We all know that a fair bit of equipment was lost when the Atlantic conveyor was sunk. Here is a couple of questions for all.
Q1. If the Atlantic Conveyor was NOT sunk, how much of an effect would the extra helicopters and stores have made to the British campaign and
Q2. How much shorter do you think the war would have been IF the ability to lift troops forward by helo had been available ?
Q3. The extra Harriers would have enabled far more sorties to be flown and more CAP. Would this have possibly stopped some of the ships from being sunk ?
No, can't see it from here.
I like this
"among them Major-General Julian Thompson, reveal how appalling weather, overstretched British air defences, poor communications and even incompetence sometimes stacked the odds heavily against the British. Veterans of some of the bloodiest battles talk us through the fighting. Their personal accounts reveal how professionalism and sheer courage overcame these problems."
Another eample of the British overcoming against the odds.
"500N
In a nutshell - from the programme's point of view
Unequipped, untrained for the conditions, and unfit.
No supply chain, no engineers, no artillery and no knowledge of what they were expected to do.
In fact no plan from on high of what to do with them when they arrived."
Funny how I was just watching a video on youtube of the events leading up to the Falklands surrender and a fair bit of footage of British artillery being fired.'
"no plan from on high of what to do with them when they arrived"
Are we talking Gov't / HQ back in the UK or the Commander of the taskforce ? Seems strange that they say this considering they landed at San Carlos and walked all the way to Stanley.
"Unequipped" - well doesn't every war start with the troops being Unequipped ?
We all know that a fair bit of equipment was lost when the Atlantic conveyor was sunk. Here is a couple of questions for all.
Q1. If the Atlantic Conveyor was NOT sunk, how much of an effect would the extra helicopters and stores have made to the British campaign and
Q2. How much shorter do you think the war would have been IF the ability to lift troops forward by helo had been available ?
Q3. The extra Harriers would have enabled far more sorties to be flown and more CAP. Would this have possibly stopped some of the ships from being sunk ?
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500N - I'm not arguing the case, simply reporting what they said
Watch it and then ask the questions again (see below)
Essentially they were differentiating between the trained and equipped 3Bde and the ad-hoc hastily lashed p 5Bde - who were totally unprepared for Arctic warfare - and who didn't yomp - they went to Bluff Cove on ships and we know what happened there...
As you say - Atlantic Conveyor is the great imponderable
If you use this little toy you should be able to emulate a UK IP address and download it
Expat Shield
Watch it and then ask the questions again (see below)
Essentially they were differentiating between the trained and equipped 3Bde and the ad-hoc hastily lashed p 5Bde - who were totally unprepared for Arctic warfare - and who didn't yomp - they went to Bluff Cove on ships and we know what happened there...
As you say - Atlantic Conveyor is the great imponderable
If you use this little toy you should be able to emulate a UK IP address and download it
Expat Shield
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 13th Mar 2012 at 22:14.
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Re "Air War South Atlantic" by Price and Ethell this might only be a re-print of the book published not that long after the War. As an American, Jeff Ethell had used his contacts in Argentina to add to what Alfred Price came up with from the British standpoint. However, Jeff Ethell was killed in the crash of a P-38 in 1997.
Re "Air War South Atlantic" by Price and Ethell this might only be a re-print of the book published not that long after the War. As an American, Jeff Ethell had used his contacts in Argentina to add to what Alfred Price came up with from the British standpoint. However, Jeff Ethell was killed in the crash of a P-38 in 1997.
500N,
Part of your Atlantic Coveyor question. If it hadn't been sunk, the Paras wouldn't have had to yomp a million miles to get to Stanley. Their transport (and a lot more of their supplies) were on the AC. Just made their acheivement even more remarkable.
To your other questions, probably YES to both. If you see what I mean.
Part of your Atlantic Coveyor question. If it hadn't been sunk, the Paras wouldn't have had to yomp a million miles to get to Stanley. Their transport (and a lot more of their supplies) were on the AC. Just made their acheivement even more remarkable.
To your other questions, probably YES to both. If you see what I mean.
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500N
Just noticed the last part of your question
No Harriers were lost on the Atlantic Conveyor - just helicopters
3 Chinook, a few stripped out Mk2 Sea Kings and the best part of a squadron of Wessex 5's which had been hurriedly de-mothballed
What nay have made a difference would have been sending Atlantic Causeway earlier with extra Harriers - it was held back for more extensive deck conversion to give better shelter than was on the Conveyor, and arrived too late
Just noticed the last part of your question
No Harriers were lost on the Atlantic Conveyor - just helicopters
3 Chinook, a few stripped out Mk2 Sea Kings and the best part of a squadron of Wessex 5's which had been hurriedly de-mothballed
What nay have made a difference would have been sending Atlantic Causeway earlier with extra Harriers - it was held back for more extensive deck conversion to give better shelter than was on the Conveyor, and arrived too late
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 13th Mar 2012 at 22:31.
500N,
the criticism of 5X from 3X and the amphibious group within the RN was based on two issues - that the Bn's of 5X were unfit for operations, they were untrained in amphibious warfare and both the Bn's and the Bde HQ never got their heads around either the concepts or the threats, and that they were ill-equipped (vs those in 3X including the two PARA Bn's) for the conditions - and that whereas 3X was, from day one, a fighting, all-arms brigade with an established, coherant concept of operations, 5X was, in effect, an administrative formation with no all-arms or logistic 'heart' and no plan of what the hell it was going to do when it got there.
it was described at the time - perhaps harshly - as 1200 posh blokes who couldn't carry their kit and who didn't have any artillery, logistics, engineers, helicopters, or reece.
the criticism of 5X from 3X and the amphibious group within the RN was based on two issues - that the Bn's of 5X were unfit for operations, they were untrained in amphibious warfare and both the Bn's and the Bde HQ never got their heads around either the concepts or the threats, and that they were ill-equipped (vs those in 3X including the two PARA Bn's) for the conditions - and that whereas 3X was, from day one, a fighting, all-arms brigade with an established, coherant concept of operations, 5X was, in effect, an administrative formation with no all-arms or logistic 'heart' and no plan of what the hell it was going to do when it got there.
it was described at the time - perhaps harshly - as 1200 posh blokes who couldn't carry their kit and who didn't have any artillery, logistics, engineers, helicopters, or reece.
Atlantic Causeway didn't take any Harriers down south. Did bring some more Chinooks though. Only extra Harriers that got down there after 18 May, were RAF GR3s flown directly to the CVBG from ASI with a lot of AAR support (and only after somebody stood on Middleton, the Captain of Hermes who tried to stop what he thought was a Crab stunt).
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Milo
Thanks for the heads up, caught it with 10 minutes to spare!
Agree, bit lightweight but there will undoubtedly be a lot more in the coming weeks.
Major point as has already been intimated, the Welshies were called to be a bit lacking, but then you can only be good at what your trained for.
Begs the query though, after the Helos were lost, was there no consideration made for land transport or a total re-embarkation as per the Welshies? What would a Benny have done? Couldnt a few dodgy land Rovers to carry kit have made all the difference in saving what could have turned into a debilitating force depleter? After all, we heard that the course of the main yomp was an "established logistical route"?
Never been there, so dont know how accurate that is
Thanks for the heads up, caught it with 10 minutes to spare!
Agree, bit lightweight but there will undoubtedly be a lot more in the coming weeks.
Major point as has already been intimated, the Welshies were called to be a bit lacking, but then you can only be good at what your trained for.
Begs the query though, after the Helos were lost, was there no consideration made for land transport or a total re-embarkation as per the Welshies? What would a Benny have done? Couldnt a few dodgy land Rovers to carry kit have made all the difference in saving what could have turned into a debilitating force depleter? After all, we heard that the course of the main yomp was an "established logistical route"?
Never been there, so dont know how accurate that is
Last edited by Coochycool; 14th Mar 2012 at 00:25.
In any war there is always an element of luck but what is clear was that a reliance on a long logistics chain could have been the weakest link in the chain.
As everybody knows that sometimes you get all the green lights, some days its red all the way.
As everybody knows that sometimes you get all the green lights, some days its red all the way.
500N-which extra Harriers?
Main-I must have been imagining things when I saw the pictures of Harriers on the deck of the Atlantic! Luckily they were flown off before the Exocet attack.
Main-I must have been imagining things when I saw the pictures of Harriers on the deck of the Atlantic! Luckily they were flown off before the Exocet attack.