LOA Cut Again
IM,
I have served on three rather special overseas tours - none in Cyprus and none on a UK Base, so I can't comment on your assertions about closing times &c.
When we accepted this last posting plot 2 1/2 years ago, inter alia we looked at the sums and realised that there would be a drop in our overall income but also were excited about the remote location and what it would offer the family. Would we did not anticipate that there would be such a drastic cut in allowances (and not just LOA; consider the lost of IA when travelling and an overall pay-freeze, SCV contributions, ents allowance, for example). My pay is down by over GBP14K pa. Luckily we had a second income from an enterprise in the UK so that has shielded us to some extent. Other Government Departments do compensate for loss of spouse income when accompanied overseas (eg FCO, DfID, SOCA, HMRC) and typically do not charge the individual for housing. In stark contrast, at my location heating costs were very high because of the houses and the extreme winters; the OFA and X/Y Schemes are punitively expensive.
Comparing an overseas posting with an internal (UK) posting is spurious. Firstly, If I was posted back to Leeming, for example, there are employment opportunities for spouses, as well as the opportunity to commute to take up professional employment in Leeds, Newcastle, York or indeed, London - whereas there are none in my last os posting. Moreover, I would not be paying a King's Ransom for SCV every 6 weeks; instead we'd be able to to visit WP Minor at his school and watch him play rugger on a regular basis (and before you say that CEA is a personal choice, I have had 5 postings in the last 6 years thus the alternative would be to leave the service).
Bottom line, irrespective of issues such as spousal employment and boarding school costs, the set-up and living costs of an overseas tour in majority of cases exceed the LOA or COLA that is now paid. Why should SP be expected to largely subsidise overseas tours these days? Similarly, those working in Main Building now are having to dig deep into their pockets for living and working in central London.
I have served on three rather special overseas tours - none in Cyprus and none on a UK Base, so I can't comment on your assertions about closing times &c.
When we accepted this last posting plot 2 1/2 years ago, inter alia we looked at the sums and realised that there would be a drop in our overall income but also were excited about the remote location and what it would offer the family. Would we did not anticipate that there would be such a drastic cut in allowances (and not just LOA; consider the lost of IA when travelling and an overall pay-freeze, SCV contributions, ents allowance, for example). My pay is down by over GBP14K pa. Luckily we had a second income from an enterprise in the UK so that has shielded us to some extent. Other Government Departments do compensate for loss of spouse income when accompanied overseas (eg FCO, DfID, SOCA, HMRC) and typically do not charge the individual for housing. In stark contrast, at my location heating costs were very high because of the houses and the extreme winters; the OFA and X/Y Schemes are punitively expensive.
Comparing an overseas posting with an internal (UK) posting is spurious. Firstly, If I was posted back to Leeming, for example, there are employment opportunities for spouses, as well as the opportunity to commute to take up professional employment in Leeds, Newcastle, York or indeed, London - whereas there are none in my last os posting. Moreover, I would not be paying a King's Ransom for SCV every 6 weeks; instead we'd be able to to visit WP Minor at his school and watch him play rugger on a regular basis (and before you say that CEA is a personal choice, I have had 5 postings in the last 6 years thus the alternative would be to leave the service).
Bottom line, irrespective of issues such as spousal employment and boarding school costs, the set-up and living costs of an overseas tour in majority of cases exceed the LOA or COLA that is now paid. Why should SP be expected to largely subsidise overseas tours these days? Similarly, those working in Main Building now are having to dig deep into their pockets for living and working in central London.
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OP, I whole heartedly agree with you but to put a slightly warmer glow on things:
I am shortly to be posted overseas with wife and child (will be 2 months old!). As far as I can see the LOA will not cover the cost of living there. However, I volunteered and am still looking forward to going.
To those whiners disagreeing about loss of earnigns for partners, yes they may have to give up a job when you are reposted in the UK but the chances are they are fluent in English (or some colloquial version) and will not have a probelm getting a job (yes apparently the number of unemplyed is increasing but that is because people are not willing to take any job that is available).
With a foreign posting (non English speaking country) this is far more difficult, especially as partners no longer receive language training at all.
The cost of car ownership has also been raised. Even if you take your existing car(s) with you you have to pay for license plates and registration for the new country of posting. A new car is an option but will cost as much as it would in the UK (unless you can buy outright without finance). Not a saving comared to the UK but not more expensive either.
Overall, although I will take a financial hit there are a number of positives.
Fuel allowance has increased to give you more litres tax free. As you do not have to worry about flights/car hire or ferry costs, europe becomes vastly closer and easier to explore.
We have decided the wife will be a stay at home mum so she would have lost her income anyway. A plus point is we will be able to claim child benefit from our exchange countries givernment (something the government here is still fighting to stop). Our child will also (hopefully) be bi-lingual by the time we leave.
Overall, a financial hit (which should never be the case despite what some of the old stalwarts say) but we have decided to accept this due to the opportunities it gives for us as a family (provided we make the most of it).
I wouldn't say carte blanche don't take an overseas posting, weigh up the pros (opportunities) and cons (costs) and see if it is for you.
I am shortly to be posted overseas with wife and child (will be 2 months old!). As far as I can see the LOA will not cover the cost of living there. However, I volunteered and am still looking forward to going.
To those whiners disagreeing about loss of earnigns for partners, yes they may have to give up a job when you are reposted in the UK but the chances are they are fluent in English (or some colloquial version) and will not have a probelm getting a job (yes apparently the number of unemplyed is increasing but that is because people are not willing to take any job that is available).
With a foreign posting (non English speaking country) this is far more difficult, especially as partners no longer receive language training at all.
The cost of car ownership has also been raised. Even if you take your existing car(s) with you you have to pay for license plates and registration for the new country of posting. A new car is an option but will cost as much as it would in the UK (unless you can buy outright without finance). Not a saving comared to the UK but not more expensive either.
Overall, although I will take a financial hit there are a number of positives.
Fuel allowance has increased to give you more litres tax free. As you do not have to worry about flights/car hire or ferry costs, europe becomes vastly closer and easier to explore.
We have decided the wife will be a stay at home mum so she would have lost her income anyway. A plus point is we will be able to claim child benefit from our exchange countries givernment (something the government here is still fighting to stop). Our child will also (hopefully) be bi-lingual by the time we leave.
Overall, a financial hit (which should never be the case despite what some of the old stalwarts say) but we have decided to accept this due to the opportunities it gives for us as a family (provided we make the most of it).
I wouldn't say carte blanche don't take an overseas posting, weigh up the pros (opportunities) and cons (costs) and see if it is for you.
As an ex-military civilian I am horrified at the treatment that these people have been treated. I have done numerous postings and detachments in the service and also as a civilian.
There is no way a civilian organisation would DARE reduce an employees allowances once he has started an overseas position. To do so would be a flagrant breach of contract.
I would; on leaving the service if it was within seven years; sue the MOD for all the allowances that your litigation lawyer has assessed that you were due for, plus the legal expenses, plus personal and costs and stresses whilst on the posting.
Even the MOD is not above the law.
There is no way a civilian organisation would DARE reduce an employees allowances once he has started an overseas position. To do so would be a flagrant breach of contract.
I would; on leaving the service if it was within seven years; sue the MOD for all the allowances that your litigation lawyer has assessed that you were due for, plus the legal expenses, plus personal and costs and stresses whilst on the posting.
Even the MOD is not above the law.
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PAP
And we haven't even touched on the issue of paying to get yourself and, if applicable, your family to, and home from, your overseas posting. Regardless of your opinions on the rights and/or wrongs of the LOA issue one fact is very clear; the latest (i.e. May 11) round of cuts was not based on how much it cost to live wherever in the world you are. It was an arbitrary cut with no visible (or accountable) staff work on which to base the cuts - and that's a fact!
Yes the PAP rules are exactly that...PAP. The rules still seem predicated that a family has no furniture (apart from a 'radiogram'), no sports equipment (bikes, ski gear etc), pets and precious little in the way of clothing, toys and books, for example. The rules expect that families subsidise their own movement to a new overseas post. Moreover, if you are in an MOD furnished hiring and have to move due to Service Needs, there is now no mechanism to move MOD furniture at the public expense! A colleague of mine at an ISODET in Germany had to move about 2 km, as the hiring was being returned to the owner, and ended up paying a couple of hundred euros to move the MOD furniture. The commercial movers were specifically instructed not to touch MOD furniture; similarly there is now no mechanism to hire a van and move your own effects and then claim back. The contractor must be used in all cases.
I served INVOLSEP on a foreign staff course and then planned to meet my family at my next overseas posting. The 'system' would only fund moving my effects from Staff College and to the border (but not within) the country of my next posting. My family was expected to move themselves, and their effects, at personal expense.
Naturally I argued the point, and it became a PACCC query and eventually, through gritted teeth, the family was moved at the public expense at the 11th hour. What was additionally frustrating is that I had anticipated movements 'issues' and had staffed the matter before I went away to staff college and when I cited the (positive) response from DSCOM, I was advised that, as DSCOM no longer exisited at Andover, that decision was no longer valid!
I served INVOLSEP on a foreign staff course and then planned to meet my family at my next overseas posting. The 'system' would only fund moving my effects from Staff College and to the border (but not within) the country of my next posting. My family was expected to move themselves, and their effects, at personal expense.
Naturally I argued the point, and it became a PACCC query and eventually, through gritted teeth, the family was moved at the public expense at the 11th hour. What was additionally frustrating is that I had anticipated movements 'issues' and had staffed the matter before I went away to staff college and when I cited the (positive) response from DSCOM, I was advised that, as DSCOM no longer exisited at Andover, that decision was no longer valid!
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There's a lot of bitterness on this thread isn't there???
This is something MOD will have to look at and soon. The reason:
F-35, Air Seeker (Rivet Joint), Reaper, Project Seedcorn (MPA) all involve/have already involved literally hundreds of people moving to the USA for extended periods. Not for 'cushy' sunshine tours, but to work bl00dy hard delivering key UK current and future capabilities. Not always in places you would neccessarily want to live (how many hurricanes/earthquakes/tornados{met variety not GR4} do you get at Lossie or Valley?).
Yes, everyone volunteers for the posts out there. Yes, most will have done plenty of time OOA (haven't we all?). Yes, everyone ought to look very closely a the costs/benefits of acccepting a post abroad.
However, the MOD will not get the volunteers to fill the important roles in the States and elsewhere if nobody can afford to go. Otherwise we will have spent an awful lot of money on technology that we do not know how to use or maintain, ad those that do will have taken jobs in industry that pay you a wage to recoup the losses.
There are plenty of jobs coming available for people who want to move abroad and see the reality of 'sunshine' tours so the manning agencies tell me...
This is something MOD will have to look at and soon. The reason:
F-35, Air Seeker (Rivet Joint), Reaper, Project Seedcorn (MPA) all involve/have already involved literally hundreds of people moving to the USA for extended periods. Not for 'cushy' sunshine tours, but to work bl00dy hard delivering key UK current and future capabilities. Not always in places you would neccessarily want to live (how many hurricanes/earthquakes/tornados{met variety not GR4} do you get at Lossie or Valley?).
Yes, everyone volunteers for the posts out there. Yes, most will have done plenty of time OOA (haven't we all?). Yes, everyone ought to look very closely a the costs/benefits of acccepting a post abroad.
However, the MOD will not get the volunteers to fill the important roles in the States and elsewhere if nobody can afford to go. Otherwise we will have spent an awful lot of money on technology that we do not know how to use or maintain, ad those that do will have taken jobs in industry that pay you a wage to recoup the losses.
There are plenty of jobs coming available for people who want to move abroad and see the reality of 'sunshine' tours so the manning agencies tell me...
White Ovies,
Of course you are quite right with your comments.
There is no 'connection' between the Joint teams that determine LOA (for example) and the delivery of future capabilities. My understanding is that these changes (read massive reductions) are presented to the DB as a fait accompli and not as 'options' or alternative assumptions, as some of you may remember them as. The only way the sS can increase the remuneratuion for personnel in post is to promote them - but that generally results in the person being either ineligble for the post, or sees their rapid repatriation back to Blightly.
Of course you are quite right with your comments.
There is no 'connection' between the Joint teams that determine LOA (for example) and the delivery of future capabilities. My understanding is that these changes (read massive reductions) are presented to the DB as a fait accompli and not as 'options' or alternative assumptions, as some of you may remember them as. The only way the sS can increase the remuneratuion for personnel in post is to promote them - but that generally results in the person being either ineligble for the post, or sees their rapid repatriation back to Blightly.
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SFFP:
You're either being dense or obtuse. I'll leave you to decide... Roll on November...
Courtney Mil:
Ok, so we've identified the problem. The "system" is too f$cking stupid to administer a perfectly simple set of variables. Now we have identified the problem there must be someone in the RAF/MoD that is smart enough to solve it... isn't there? There must be one... Surely... 
You're either being dense or obtuse. I'll leave you to decide... Roll on November...
So if the cost of living drops you would advocate paying an extra allowance that is neither justified or required, seems to me there is still some more thinking to be done.
AA, right!
Of course that brings its own problems where you have a number of exchange personnel in the same place on different rates of allowances, dending on how long they've been there. It's never easy.
Of course that brings its own problems where you have a number of exchange personnel in the same place on different rates of allowances, dending on how long they've been there. It's never easy.
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Originally Posted by Airbirne Aircrew
there must be someone in the RAF/MoD that is smart enough to solve it... isn't there? There must be one... Surely
Actually, I was wondering how divisive it would have two people, same rank, same exchane base, same job, different rates.But I take your point, there must be better solutions.
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RATES
06.0134
. Full Rate LOA Calculation. DCDS Pers Pay & Manning, in conjunction
with single-Service Pay Colonels’ staff, determine the range of necessary goods and
services that LOA will support. Defence Analytical Services Agency conduct a survey
periodically to identify the average amount spent on these goods and services by UKbased
Service personnel. SPVA DMS LOA calculates the rates by comparing these
UK costs with the cost of the same or similar goods and services in the overseas area.
Both UK and overseas costs are periodically updated. To recognise the different
conditions that may apply overseas, LOA also takes account of different levels of
consumption of goods and services, e.g, in a hot and humid climate more sun cream
may be used than within the UK. Also, in some countries there are different legal
requirements to the UK, e.g., a requirement to carry a first-aid kit in a car.
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Innocent Man
Lets hope you are when you get back.
Anyway, somebody with some sense. You have weighed up the pros and cons and have decided to go anyway knowing that you will have to incur some costs. Well done.
Lets hope you are when you get back.
Anyway, somebody with some sense. You have weighed up the pros and cons and have decided to go anyway knowing that you will have to incur some costs. Well done.
Your ideas on what constitutes an exchange/overseas tour appear to be based on hopelessly out of date information. I've found my role rewarding and interesting, but am financially down on the income my wife and I would have generated if we had remained in the UK. I have had to work long hours and very hard for good results - no problem with that, it's satisfying. We knew what the LOA and our outgoings were and signed up for it. The Terms and Conditions we were posted on were serverely curtailed after we arrived.
If there is no need for the LOA, okey dokey. Chop it. Carry on, it will save millions.
On that basis, I hope that there isn't a civil servant somewhere who starts questioning the need for flying pay soon. Flying pay being a recruitment and incentive related award that is clearly not currently required, what with a full to bursting pipeline and a recruiting freeze.......
Simplistic maybe, but you don't seem to understand the simple point being made. You also appear to be very bitter, not sure why.
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This argument seems to be fairly well polarised.
Either you are in the camp that says you shouldn't be financially disadvantaged by taking up an appointment overseas because:
1. It's retention negative.
2. It dissuades the correct characters from going on the tour.
3. It's fundementally unfair, we don't get paid by how good a tour it is. e.g. Leuchars, great base by a golf course, get paid 90%. Marham, middle of nowhere, get paid 102%. Chivenor amazing, 80% etc etc.
Or you are in the camp that says that it was a) a good deal and b) voluntary so you should just be grateful. Which is a pretty simplistic, petty argument worthy of those whose thought process is limited to 'just because'.
Either you are in the camp that says you shouldn't be financially disadvantaged by taking up an appointment overseas because:
1. It's retention negative.
2. It dissuades the correct characters from going on the tour.
3. It's fundementally unfair, we don't get paid by how good a tour it is. e.g. Leuchars, great base by a golf course, get paid 90%. Marham, middle of nowhere, get paid 102%. Chivenor amazing, 80% etc etc.
Or you are in the camp that says that it was a) a good deal and b) voluntary so you should just be grateful. Which is a pretty simplistic, petty argument worthy of those whose thought process is limited to 'just because'.
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Or you could be in the camp that says LOA is an allowance that has been going up an down like a whores drawers since it's introduction and that to have planned a whole 3 year tour based on the rate set on day 1 is pretty naive at best.
We spent a total of 7 years over 2 tours in receipt of it and never knew from one month to the next what we would get due to FFR changes and reviews. Accordingly we never once factored it into our accounts planning as it was never meant to do anything but supplement my pay.
Just a thought but LOA at a rate of £17 a day is over £500 a month on top of someones annual salary which however you look at it is hardly going to put anyone in the poor house.
We spent a total of 7 years over 2 tours in receipt of it and never knew from one month to the next what we would get due to FFR changes and reviews. Accordingly we never once factored it into our accounts planning as it was never meant to do anything but supplement my pay.
Just a thought but LOA at a rate of £17 a day is over £500 a month on top of someones annual salary which however you look at it is hardly going to put anyone in the poor house.
Poor house no, but it doesn't quite cover the wife no longer working, exorbitant car insurance, high food prices etc, etc....Sunshine or no, LOA has become an important part of the overseas posting decision....but that's all been said before. I couldn't afford to go back to BFG now; missus earns too much, kids cost too much...sadly
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Jealousy over an allowance is just puerile. Yes it is an Individual decision, but getting involved in a race to the bottom of the tree is not the answer. We are not some third world economy, and things aren't THAT bad for us to go around wearing horsehair shirts because we feel that allowances are a luxury. They are not.
They were introduced to recompense things like the cost of living abroad etc. sadly, there is no compensation for your wife or husband having to give up a sometimes well paid job so that you can live together, but that's life. However, those that berate the OP fail to understand that having been 'sold a pup' he now has to explain to the other half, the peculiarities of this allowance.
I for one think that the bone CS replies to him and Whernur are a disgrace, and miss the point completely.
They were introduced to recompense things like the cost of living abroad etc. sadly, there is no compensation for your wife or husband having to give up a sometimes well paid job so that you can live together, but that's life. However, those that berate the OP fail to understand that having been 'sold a pup' he now has to explain to the other half, the peculiarities of this allowance.
I for one think that the bone CS replies to him and Whernur are a disgrace, and miss the point completely.