Commissioned Crewman Leaders
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xenolith: Globefan. WTF is an 'empowered master'?
The result of an ill-thought out plan by a senior officer way back in 02-03 I think, when he decided to stop in-branch commissioning. Little short-sighted some might say....
The result of an ill-thought out plan by a senior officer way back in 02-03 I think, when he decided to stop in-branch commissioning. Little short-sighted some might say....
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Commissioned FE's or LM's.
It is not the end of the world folks. The RAAF has never, in the fifty four years I know of, ever had an operational Flight Engineer or Loadmaster hold a commission. Seems to work OK and I met few, certainly none that come to mind, Warrant Officer Section Leaders who did not have the balls to stick up for their troops when required.
Hear what your saying old fella, seems like things are good in the RAAF,however; I know of several instances when the "empowered Master" was deliberately excluded from execs meetings and sqn planning meetings. Even the sqn cdr at the time admitted that things were dire for the branch (back in 03 or o4 as I remember). Things are moving rapidly, who knows whats ahead?
Last edited by Q-SKI; 13th Feb 2012 at 10:48.
Thread Starter
So it would seem that the 'Masters' had their way! As I recall they were always very vocal about how they could do the job better than the commissioned incumbent and could replace them at the drop of a ‘bone dome’. I admit they may have had a point; I was around when the pay band review was done in the mid(?) 80’s. The whole thing was discredited as it was obviously hostile having been done by an ex 33 Sqn WO Eng who loathed airman aircrew with a passion. During the next 4 years the AE leaders got their sh1t in one pile and that branch was duly up-banded, the LM branch, whose leaders did didley squat for the troops, stayed in the lower band. I always had the impression that they were smug passengers on their own little gravy train, particularly on the fixed wing side.
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Although I referred to the one I knew as a total kn*b which to be honest he was, I still cannot fathom the belief that by simply holding a commission the person should be better and more knowledgeable at the job, looking in now from the outside, one see's that is often far from the case, indeed to the detriment of those that know what they are doing, but are over ruled by rank by those that don't, gain smarty points in doing it.
I was always taught to seek out as an Engineer the 20 year SAC OR JT, as they knew the aircraft and systems, it was borne out in practice, but the get promoted or be gone culture has resulted in a orientation to be seen to know what one is doing so one can be promoted, against what the industry has of actually knowing. You now get people in ranks that are in for hopefully a short a time as possible and you lose those that used to have the knowledge base from experience in that rank, which means higher you rapidly rise the dilution of knowledge occurs.
In one respect that is why I find Civilian life better, if you do not cut the mustard you are gone, hence why a lot of ex RAF Engineers can comfortably exceed what the RAF pays the likes of Sqn Ldrs, and freed from what I now see as a semi repressive rank structure shine and get the opportunity to fly...
Such a shame the services do not recognise those people very well and commission them.
I in my service history i had 2 engineering officers who were switched on, recognised the skills below them, utilised and encouraged them, and worked as a team.. the rest were mediocre to be kind, and one..l these days I would have sacked him 10 times over.
I was always taught to seek out as an Engineer the 20 year SAC OR JT, as they knew the aircraft and systems, it was borne out in practice, but the get promoted or be gone culture has resulted in a orientation to be seen to know what one is doing so one can be promoted, against what the industry has of actually knowing. You now get people in ranks that are in for hopefully a short a time as possible and you lose those that used to have the knowledge base from experience in that rank, which means higher you rapidly rise the dilution of knowledge occurs.
In one respect that is why I find Civilian life better, if you do not cut the mustard you are gone, hence why a lot of ex RAF Engineers can comfortably exceed what the RAF pays the likes of Sqn Ldrs, and freed from what I now see as a semi repressive rank structure shine and get the opportunity to fly...
Such a shame the services do not recognise those people very well and commission them.
I in my service history i had 2 engineering officers who were switched on, recognised the skills below them, utilised and encouraged them, and worked as a team.. the rest were mediocre to be kind, and one..l these days I would have sacked him 10 times over.
Last edited by NutLoose; 16th Feb 2012 at 01:51.
Xenolith, I respect your views, but was it not the case that the input for supporting the up banding came mainly from the Master cadre and the commissioned leaders had little involvement? I agree that as a branch we missed a trick and still feel it was a jaded exercise in bean counting. Clear above and behind......
Thread Starter
QSki. 'Clear above and behind' 
haven’t heard that for a while! In answer to your question, my info came from a mate at ISK, after the event (I had left by then). The AE leadership kept it close to their chest for obvious reasons.
NutLoose. Hmmmm,
1. The only engineers in the RAF are commissioned. All else are technicians or mechanics etc.
2. If you want a pop at Eng Os start your own thread.
3. That knob is very shiny. Do you polish it a lot?
haven’t heard that for a while! In answer to your question, my info came from a mate at ISK, after the event (I had left by then). The AE leadership kept it close to their chest for obvious reasons. NutLoose. Hmmmm,
1. The only engineers in the RAF are commissioned. All else are technicians or mechanics etc.
2. If you want a pop at Eng Os start your own thread.
3. That knob is very shiny. Do you polish it a lot?
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Sorry was using it as an example....
BTW not all "Engineers" in the RAF are commissioned, I know / knew Engineers in the RAF that hold licences and degrees but are not commissioned.
BTW not all "Engineers" in the RAF are commissioned, I know / knew Engineers in the RAF that hold licences and degrees but are not commissioned.
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If you don't hold an Engineering degree your not an engineer! The rest are mechanics or technicians, no matter how good they are.
It's a bit like the cooks in the mess getting called chefs, they are NOT chefs but cooks.
It's a bit like the cooks in the mess getting called chefs, they are NOT chefs but cooks.
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Not an engineer if no degree.
Jayand and xenolith, what a lot of rot. I know people whom hold an Engineering Degree and could not put a Mechano Set together. I know people that did not go to High School and yet they can construct machines of a very complex nature. I do not know what qualifications you hold, but please do not try to diminish to value of those whom you call mechanics or technicians, nor the cooks for that matter. Using your logic there are no Flight Engineers, Ships Engineers, Railway Engineers or Army Engineers (you know, the ones that build airfields). As others have said, holding a commission does not make the holder necessarily any better or worse than the non-commissioned ENGINEERS.
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I knew this would cause consternation, you can call anyone what you want including using the name Engineer, but a name does not mean you are one.
You may work in Engineering as I do but unless you hold an Engineering degree you are not strictly an Engineer.
Look to the real world and Industry, the Engineers you talk of within the service would almost all be considered as Technicians. Engineering Officers would not get a job (lol) Engo's are better suited to project management imo.
Engineer jobs in the real world require you to have an Engineering degree.
You may work in Engineering as I do but unless you hold an Engineering degree you are not strictly an Engineer.
Look to the real world and Industry, the Engineers you talk of within the service would almost all be considered as Technicians. Engineering Officers would not get a job (lol) Engo's are better suited to project management imo.
Engineer jobs in the real world require you to have an Engineering degree.
There is a direct Gov e-petition to protect the title 'Engineer' available at Make 'Engineer' a protected title - e-petitions
Once I cudn't even spell Inginurr, now I are one!
Once I cudn't even spell Inginurr, now I are one!
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Has the term Artificers gone out of fashion?
It to me not only gave an ability to seperate the practical from the design but also gave a title to a skill which those that have it have every reason to be proud of.
It to me not only gave an ability to seperate the practical from the design but also gave a title to a skill which those that have it have every reason to be proud of.
According to the wording of that e-petition, even crewmen when 'retired from the profession' will be able to call themselves engineers. Win-win!
CG (Engineer, apparently.)
CG (Engineer, apparently.)
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Old Fella
Your post reminds me that many of them can work out the square root to a jar of pickles, but cannot get the lid off...
Back to the thread. I've met many 'empowered' MAcr that can give the best commissioned Rearcrew Ldr a run for their money, and many who I wouldn't trust to write a sick note for my son never mind an SJAR. But that works for the commissioned lot too, it's horses for courses I guess.
Sadly, in the current climate, it's irrelevant this year anyway as there is no commissioning requirement.
Regards
Gene
Your post reminds me that many of them can work out the square root to a jar of pickles, but cannot get the lid off...
Back to the thread. I've met many 'empowered' MAcr that can give the best commissioned Rearcrew Ldr a run for their money, and many who I wouldn't trust to write a sick note for my son never mind an SJAR. But that works for the commissioned lot too, it's horses for courses I guess.
Sadly, in the current climate, it's irrelevant this year anyway as there is no commissioning requirement.
Regards
Gene
Thread Starter
NutLoose & Oldfella.
Firstly,
There is absolutely no need to shout!
Secondly, my comments based on the RAF career structure and therefore
does not hold water. May I direct you to:
http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/technicalandengineering.cfm
It would seem to the casual observer that you both have issues with professional standing, name wise, and with your (ex) superior officers i.e. commissioned ones. That is entirely your affair so I won’t even mention chips on shoulders etc.
What you may not know, when berating said superior officers about not getting their hands dirty at the ‘coal face’, is that commissioned ALMs were recruited exclusively from the SNCO cadre and were not direct entry commissions. As I remember the most reviled ALM officers were the ones that entered by the ‘back door’ i.e. commissioning outside the branch because they didn’t measure up in the ALM competition and then sneaking back into the branch thereby stealing a place on the next competition.
Firstly,
ENGINEERS
Secondly, my comments based on the RAF career structure and therefore
I know / knew Engineers in the RAF that hold licences and degrees but are not commissioned
http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/technicalandengineering.cfm
It would seem to the casual observer that you both have issues with professional standing, name wise, and with your (ex) superior officers i.e. commissioned ones. That is entirely your affair so I won’t even mention chips on shoulders etc.
What you may not know, when berating said superior officers about not getting their hands dirty at the ‘coal face’, is that commissioned ALMs were recruited exclusively from the SNCO cadre and were not direct entry commissions. As I remember the most reviled ALM officers were the ones that entered by the ‘back door’ i.e. commissioning outside the branch because they didn’t measure up in the ALM competition and then sneaking back into the branch thereby stealing a place on the next competition.