The Crash of Nimrod XV230: A victim’s perspective
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The Crash of Nimrod XV230: A victim’s perspective
This is probably the last time I will post on here, and this is why. My wife has written a book called The Crash of Nimrod XV230: A victim’s perspective. PPRuNe gets a mention and some of its members for all the help and support we received from you guys, who helped in your own way to improve the airworthiness process.
Thanks again guys for everything
You can get the book from Amazon:
Thanks again guys for everything
You can get the book from Amazon:
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No man should ever have to endure burying his son. It is life's greatest tragedy.
The book is on my tablet and already it is an absorbing and moving read. Well done to you both.
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I've just read the first few pages on the Amazon preview and I won't be reading any more. For me the loss of close family and friends is a personal matter and I cannot see what this book serves to do apart from incite blame on something that was to some extent, in my opinion, "bad luck" - in total juxtaposition to what is said in the first chapter. I didn't "buy the farm" in a Nimrod with the same poor design and I do count myself "lucky" that I did not.
I, also, will not be posting on this matter again; for one, I believe that Adey Davies deserves better...
CPL Clott
I, also, will not be posting on this matter again; for one, I believe that Adey Davies deserves better...
CPL Clott
I too have just read the first few pages on the Amazon preview, fully expecting not to like what I found there.
I ended up finding it an incredibly moving tribute to a son of whom the author was clearly immensely proud.
The previous poster is fully entitled to the view that they hold but I also believe that the author of the book is more than entitled to deal with this in any way she can.
I never met Ben, I'd left Kinloss before he even joined up, but I feel as though I do know him, from what I've read of his Mum's book; I think I'd have liked him, too - just as much as I did the guys who I did know on his crew.
I'll be buying a copy, thanks Trish.
I ended up finding it an incredibly moving tribute to a son of whom the author was clearly immensely proud.
The previous poster is fully entitled to the view that they hold but I also believe that the author of the book is more than entitled to deal with this in any way she can.
I never met Ben, I'd left Kinloss before he even joined up, but I feel as though I do know him, from what I've read of his Mum's book; I think I'd have liked him, too - just as much as I did the guys who I did know on his crew.
I'll be buying a copy, thanks Trish.
Amazon says 4-6 weeks delivery on the book so I'll wait. But reading the preview makes me think this should be required reading in MoD, along with the evidence to the review.
It looks like there is some quite interesting stuff toward the end explaining why no one has been brought to account, despite Hadden Cave naming about a dozen people. Collusion between RAF police and the Health and Safety Executive is mentioned. Pretty ironic, the week HSE decided to proceeded against a rail company for level crossing deaths. As a senior QC he must have been confident the burden of proof had been met to name them in the first place, and could be met in court. IIRC, the main Nimrod thread mentions that more senior people oversaw the failings, which is probably where the real story lies.
It looks like there is some quite interesting stuff toward the end explaining why no one has been brought to account, despite Hadden Cave naming about a dozen people. Collusion between RAF police and the Health and Safety Executive is mentioned. Pretty ironic, the week HSE decided to proceeded against a rail company for level crossing deaths. As a senior QC he must have been confident the burden of proof had been met to name them in the first place, and could be met in court. IIRC, the main Nimrod thread mentions that more senior people oversaw the failings, which is probably where the real story lies.
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Kindle availability
Hi Not Long Here,
Kindle is available to users of Amazon sites, but you'll only be able to order it if you live (or your IP is registered) in the territory where it's being sold. UK users will be able to buy it from Amazon.co.uk, but visitors from overseas won't. They'll need to go to their usual Amazon site. In many cases that's Amazon.com, and the book is listed there:
The Kindle version is also listed on Amazon sites for France, Germany and Japan.
Non-Kindle users can purchase the ebook for a wide variety of ereading devices including B&N Nook, WHSmith Kobo.
I hope that helps!
Helen
Kindle is available to users of Amazon sites, but you'll only be able to order it if you live (or your IP is registered) in the territory where it's being sold. UK users will be able to buy it from Amazon.co.uk, but visitors from overseas won't. They'll need to go to their usual Amazon site. In many cases that's Amazon.com, and the book is listed there:
The Kindle version is also listed on Amazon sites for France, Germany and Japan.
Non-Kindle users can purchase the ebook for a wide variety of ereading devices including B&N Nook, WHSmith Kobo.
I hope that helps!
Helen
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4-6 week wait
Hi dervish,
I'm fairly sure you won't have to wait the full 4-6 weeks. Amazon tends to display this as a general rule when a book first comes out and they're not holding physical stock yet. Usually their system kicks into gear once a few orders have been made (and a demand has been proved). At that point they usually pull stock into their warehouse and show 'In Stock' with immediate despatch, so fingers crossed you get your book more quickly.
If not, Amazon aren't the only stockist and you can purchase the book elsewhere, including from the SilverWood Books secure online bookshop where it will be despatched same day.
Cheers,
Helen
I'm fairly sure you won't have to wait the full 4-6 weeks. Amazon tends to display this as a general rule when a book first comes out and they're not holding physical stock yet. Usually their system kicks into gear once a few orders have been made (and a demand has been proved). At that point they usually pull stock into their warehouse and show 'In Stock' with immediate despatch, so fingers crossed you get your book more quickly.
If not, Amazon aren't the only stockist and you can purchase the book elsewhere, including from the SilverWood Books secure online bookshop where it will be despatched same day.
Cheers,
Helen
Graham and Trish, this book stands not only for your relentless demand for the truth, nor simply as a tribute to a much loved lost son, but for the hope that no other parents should go through such hell for the want of fit military aircraft. We should all carry on the fight for that end. Thank you for your steadfast courage that has inspired so many of us.
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Just read the kindle sample and I will be buying the full version asap.
I don't think there is anything controversial about seeking out the truth, especially when it involves your own son!
Well done Trish and Graham.
I don't think there is anything controversial about seeking out the truth, especially when it involves your own son!
Well done Trish and Graham.
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Just read the few pages available on Amazon, and I have placed my order.
It is clear that whilst H-C named names, his justification was based on personal opinion, and lacked the concrete evidence needed to take people to court. The cases against people like Baber and Eagles just fall apart.
H-C if you get around to reading this, for £3.5 million you did a great "white wash" job for MoD, who now refuse to answer any more FOI request on Nimrod engineering.
DV
It is clear that whilst H-C named names, his justification was based on personal opinion, and lacked the concrete evidence needed to take people to court. The cases against people like Baber and Eagles just fall apart.
H-C if you get around to reading this, for £3.5 million you did a great "white wash" job for MoD, who now refuse to answer any more FOI request on Nimrod engineering.
DV
The problem faced by all parties here is that MoD’s letters of airworthiness delegation require the holder to immediately (a) take corrective action, if within their remit, and (b) inform their management chain.
While it may be difficult to prove Baber and Eagles did not do so, it can DEFINITELY be proven that the RAF Chief Engineer from 1991-96 (for example) took no action when informed via the various ART reports (including Nimrod), which in turn merely repeated previous warnings to his predecessors. Or, to be more accurate, he did take action – he oversaw the chopping of airworthiness funding for a 2nd and 3rd consecutive year, to the tune of approx 28% p.a.
In fact, Baber could argue he did take action. He was meant to inherit a contract which had the Safety Case under continuous review. He did not, and had to let such a contract himself. (The incompetent management of the contract is a different issue. Incompetence is not an offence, although it offends). By doing so, demonstrably he went further toward meeting his obligation than most others, given the order had been issued under the CE in 1992 to run down these contracts.
Haddon-Cave conveniently ignored these facts (which were also submitted to Ministers in 2005), instead actually praising the two of the more senior officers concerned. Motive?
Had Baber been prosecuted, he would be an utter fool not to have the likes of Alcock subpoenaed – an act which would quickly raise the question precisely how many people in MoD actually met their obligations set out in letters of delegation. It would be quicker to list those who did comply – IFS, EAC and one MoD(PE) project manager (according to MoD themselves). In turn, this would raise the question – If MoD has so few who think it necessary to meet a legal obligation, or competent enough to recognise the failings, then what on earth makes anyone think the MAA is fit for purpose?
As you say, a whitewash. That is why books such as this are necessary.
While it may be difficult to prove Baber and Eagles did not do so, it can DEFINITELY be proven that the RAF Chief Engineer from 1991-96 (for example) took no action when informed via the various ART reports (including Nimrod), which in turn merely repeated previous warnings to his predecessors. Or, to be more accurate, he did take action – he oversaw the chopping of airworthiness funding for a 2nd and 3rd consecutive year, to the tune of approx 28% p.a.
In fact, Baber could argue he did take action. He was meant to inherit a contract which had the Safety Case under continuous review. He did not, and had to let such a contract himself. (The incompetent management of the contract is a different issue. Incompetence is not an offence, although it offends). By doing so, demonstrably he went further toward meeting his obligation than most others, given the order had been issued under the CE in 1992 to run down these contracts.
Haddon-Cave conveniently ignored these facts (which were also submitted to Ministers in 2005), instead actually praising the two of the more senior officers concerned. Motive?
Had Baber been prosecuted, he would be an utter fool not to have the likes of Alcock subpoenaed – an act which would quickly raise the question precisely how many people in MoD actually met their obligations set out in letters of delegation. It would be quicker to list those who did comply – IFS, EAC and one MoD(PE) project manager (according to MoD themselves). In turn, this would raise the question – If MoD has so few who think it necessary to meet a legal obligation, or competent enough to recognise the failings, then what on earth makes anyone think the MAA is fit for purpose?
As you say, a whitewash. That is why books such as this are necessary.
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I've just downloaded it onto my Kindle. I'll take it with me to read on my forthcoming vacation.
I found the words in the trial download to be deeply moving; it must have taken a lot of courage to produce this book. I sincerely hope that it brings some form of closure to the whole family.
I found the words in the trial download to be deeply moving; it must have taken a lot of courage to produce this book. I sincerely hope that it brings some form of closure to the whole family.
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Mightycrewseven
I knew I had read it somewhere, this is on the Amazon page under the Editorial Reviews / Product description which probably answers your question
"Some of the proceeds of this book will be donated to Médecins Sans Frontières who believe that all people have the right to medical care regardless of race, religion, creed or political affiliation."
I knew I had read it somewhere, this is on the Amazon page under the Editorial Reviews / Product description which probably answers your question
"Some of the proceeds of this book will be donated to Médecins Sans Frontières who believe that all people have the right to medical care regardless of race, religion, creed or political affiliation."
Received. Read. Excellent.
Many will find the penultimate chapter disturbing, but not in the least bit surprising. (“The RAF Police Investigation”). It raises very pointed questions. Not least, collusion to (my words) obstruct the course of justice . Also, the very selective approach to assessing evidence and the usual MoD stance that only people in the Nimrod IPT could possibly know about systemic (pan-MoD) failings. This compartmentalisation has been a feature of numerous inquiries, including Hercules and Chinook. The RAF police did NOT make any attempt to pursue key evidence from outwith the IPT. And Haddon-Cave ignored official MoD reports that proved him wrong on many counts. Inconvenient, presumably. Let us hope the person advising him is not part of the MAA, because then there is no hope at all.
The decision by both MoD and Civilian authorities (collusion again) that no further action was to be taken against any of the individuals or organisations named by Haddon-Cave (and those who approved the actions of the junior MoD staff but were not named) again raises the question of what proof Haddon-Cave had that made him name these people. As a senior QC he’d be quite conversant with the burden of proof required. It would indeed be interesting if someone named by him sought damages for defamation of character. (In my opinion, the person who was most unfairly blamed, because Haddon-Cave was given irrefutable evidence to the contrary, was General Sam Cowan). But, as in Chinook and other cases, MoD rely on private individuals not having the financial resources to fight back.
Highly recommended. Everyone in MoD should buy a copy. (Because no-one in MoD is going to teach you how to avoid this in future).
Many will find the penultimate chapter disturbing, but not in the least bit surprising. (“The RAF Police Investigation”). It raises very pointed questions. Not least, collusion to (my words) obstruct the course of justice . Also, the very selective approach to assessing evidence and the usual MoD stance that only people in the Nimrod IPT could possibly know about systemic (pan-MoD) failings. This compartmentalisation has been a feature of numerous inquiries, including Hercules and Chinook. The RAF police did NOT make any attempt to pursue key evidence from outwith the IPT. And Haddon-Cave ignored official MoD reports that proved him wrong on many counts. Inconvenient, presumably. Let us hope the person advising him is not part of the MAA, because then there is no hope at all.
The decision by both MoD and Civilian authorities (collusion again) that no further action was to be taken against any of the individuals or organisations named by Haddon-Cave (and those who approved the actions of the junior MoD staff but were not named) again raises the question of what proof Haddon-Cave had that made him name these people. As a senior QC he’d be quite conversant with the burden of proof required. It would indeed be interesting if someone named by him sought damages for defamation of character. (In my opinion, the person who was most unfairly blamed, because Haddon-Cave was given irrefutable evidence to the contrary, was General Sam Cowan). But, as in Chinook and other cases, MoD rely on private individuals not having the financial resources to fight back.
Highly recommended. Everyone in MoD should buy a copy. (Because no-one in MoD is going to teach you how to avoid this in future).
Okay - You've all convinced me that this is a book worth reading - not so much for the 'victims' Point Of View (sorry G&T) but for describing their constant battles with so-called "authorities" and for "public enquiries" and about how the results can just be a white-wash anyway.
I've bought it.
And, if this is what I think it is, G&T should think about selling the Film Rights too. It may not make a fortune but it may raise public awareness and some other individuals' resolve.
I've bought it.
And, if this is what I think it is, G&T should think about selling the Film Rights too. It may not make a fortune but it may raise public awareness and some other individuals' resolve.