Will Puma Survive?
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It certainly appears the future of the Puma may have been secured, at the expense of the Merlin (in RAF service). I wonder if this has been the master plan all along...by that I mean that that the Air Staff were probably certain that the Merlin was going to the dark blue, given that it had already been announced in the House. They resisted and denied it was a 'done deal', even though, to most other observers, it appeared to be 'done'.
I suspect that this was simply being used as a bargaining chip to keep the Puma, as in 'We can't afford to lose the Merlin - we need a medium support platform (knowing full well it was going to the RN) - if you take it away from us, then we MUST retain the Puma(II) or our helo-lift capability (the subject of much press) will be compromised...'. The RAF heirachy, in my opinion, knew the Merlin was going, and actually wanted to retain both it, and Puma II, but knew this was financially unviable, so they played a game with the merlin, in order to ensure they at least got the Puma.
I know loads of merlin pilots, and they all say 'let the navy have the thing, they have no idea how completely crap they are for junglie ops - good riddance.'
Please do not misunderstand - they mourn the loss of the role, and the Sqn's, and the ethos, capability and drive that have made 28 and 78 such superb Sqn's, but the Cab is the epitome of the 'polished turd', and they all know it.
Navy - you are superb operators and deserve the very best replacement for the venerable 'Queen'. I can assure you that the Merlin is not it. Your professionalism and ethos will ensure you make of it what you can, but it will be you who are papering the cracks and making do, rather than the aircraft allowing you to fulfill your full operational potential.
A mate who is a current merlin QHI (with 2000hrs+ on it) recently told a group of us that is was ' on most levels, a step backwards from the Wessex, two steps forward in terms of speed, and nine backwards in reliability'.
Enjoy the thing navy, and do what you can - but don't expect Seaking levels of usefulness - you won't get them.
I suspect that this was simply being used as a bargaining chip to keep the Puma, as in 'We can't afford to lose the Merlin - we need a medium support platform (knowing full well it was going to the RN) - if you take it away from us, then we MUST retain the Puma(II) or our helo-lift capability (the subject of much press) will be compromised...'. The RAF heirachy, in my opinion, knew the Merlin was going, and actually wanted to retain both it, and Puma II, but knew this was financially unviable, so they played a game with the merlin, in order to ensure they at least got the Puma.
I know loads of merlin pilots, and they all say 'let the navy have the thing, they have no idea how completely crap they are for junglie ops - good riddance.'
Please do not misunderstand - they mourn the loss of the role, and the Sqn's, and the ethos, capability and drive that have made 28 and 78 such superb Sqn's, but the Cab is the epitome of the 'polished turd', and they all know it.
Navy - you are superb operators and deserve the very best replacement for the venerable 'Queen'. I can assure you that the Merlin is not it. Your professionalism and ethos will ensure you make of it what you can, but it will be you who are papering the cracks and making do, rather than the aircraft allowing you to fulfill your full operational potential.
A mate who is a current merlin QHI (with 2000hrs+ on it) recently told a group of us that is was ' on most levels, a step backwards from the Wessex, two steps forward in terms of speed, and nine backwards in reliability'.
Enjoy the thing navy, and do what you can - but don't expect Seaking levels of usefulness - you won't get them.
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Brilliant
Banter to Tourist (albeit a tad harsh) rather than slagging!
Undoubtedly at cost to the nerves of the Puma and Merlin personnel and families, CAS and his team have played a blinder. Taking an aircraft that was by all accounts just about to get get binned before Christmas, and then playing a 'game' of Russian roulette to delay the final handing over the RN Merlin long enough (and we still have a few more years in Afghan up our sleeve to add to the delay in transfer if required). This will ensure that Puma cockpits are saved, and then look to remove through a PR activity (the inferior, sub optimal and pretty crap) Merlin to allow the Puma and Chinook to deliver all of the lift for all environments.
Now that is some very gutsy staff work and senior leadership indeed - well done those involved. With the Chinook new buys and Puma II cockpits safe we should be able to look after ourselves and manage the transition out of Merlin (which looks as though it is now the one for the scrap heap). We get the new shiney bits of kit, with more capability and less hours on the airframe and the RN (if they survive) get the white elephant that we always knew Merlin was, but kept us cockpit seats after Wessex.
All we have to do is play along for a few more years and then (if Merlin is still with us) at the next review bye bye CHF. Well, not quite as it is rumoured that our boss at JHC has promised that he will look after the RN crews and they will be absorbed into the wider JHC community to ensure that the maritime experience can be passed on to us. We certainly do not want to push out our HQs for a 6 month O Boat experience when CHF can do it for us!
It is beginning to make a lot of sense just to put all rotary wing back under one organisation and CGS and CNS do not really have the right qualifications or experience to be proper SDHs, so the logic suggests that it is CAS and the air specialists.
Banter to Tourist (albeit a tad harsh) rather than slagging!
Undoubtedly at cost to the nerves of the Puma and Merlin personnel and families, CAS and his team have played a blinder. Taking an aircraft that was by all accounts just about to get get binned before Christmas, and then playing a 'game' of Russian roulette to delay the final handing over the RN Merlin long enough (and we still have a few more years in Afghan up our sleeve to add to the delay in transfer if required). This will ensure that Puma cockpits are saved, and then look to remove through a PR activity (the inferior, sub optimal and pretty crap) Merlin to allow the Puma and Chinook to deliver all of the lift for all environments.
Now that is some very gutsy staff work and senior leadership indeed - well done those involved. With the Chinook new buys and Puma II cockpits safe we should be able to look after ourselves and manage the transition out of Merlin (which looks as though it is now the one for the scrap heap). We get the new shiney bits of kit, with more capability and less hours on the airframe and the RN (if they survive) get the white elephant that we always knew Merlin was, but kept us cockpit seats after Wessex.
All we have to do is play along for a few more years and then (if Merlin is still with us) at the next review bye bye CHF. Well, not quite as it is rumoured that our boss at JHC has promised that he will look after the RN crews and they will be absorbed into the wider JHC community to ensure that the maritime experience can be passed on to us. We certainly do not want to push out our HQs for a 6 month O Boat experience when CHF can do it for us!
It is beginning to make a lot of sense just to put all rotary wing back under one organisation and CGS and CNS do not really have the right qualifications or experience to be proper SDHs, so the logic suggests that it is CAS and the air specialists.
Last edited by MaroonMan4; 12th Feb 2012 at 10:13.
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It makes sense to put control of 'all' rotary under the control of CAS.
He won't have anything else to control for much longer, unless the RAF buy up the buccaneers and lightnings from Sun City, South Africa, or try and buy another airliner to trail some hoses out for air to air refuelling that then doesnt work.
He won't have anything else to control for much longer, unless the RAF buy up the buccaneers and lightnings from Sun City, South Africa, or try and buy another airliner to trail some hoses out for air to air refuelling that then doesnt work.
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MM,
You certainly live in a dream worldd. If you think CAS and Cmd JHC have any credibility at all in MoD or No 10 then you are truly delusional. The behaviour of the top of the RAF has been atrocious over the past couple of years and those that need to have noted it well.
"Played a blinder"....far from it.
You certainly live in a dream worldd. If you think CAS and Cmd JHC have any credibility at all in MoD or No 10 then you are truly delusional. The behaviour of the top of the RAF has been atrocious over the past couple of years and those that need to have noted it well.
"Played a blinder"....far from it.
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Year after year we see senior RAF officers playing an absolute blinder at selling their service to our politicians, all credit to them for carrying out those duties to the best of their ability. No complaints, no criticism, well done for making the best out of this awful situation we find ourselves in.
Does the Royal Navy still believe that by keeping quiet our service will somehow flourish? Am I being too rude when I say Wake Up and look at our once impressive Navy. We are now even having to beg to take the crumbs from the table of other nations.
Any modern Navy that wants to project power MUST have its own air cover and that can only be operated from ships.
Well done to the RAF
Does the Royal Navy still believe that by keeping quiet our service will somehow flourish? Am I being too rude when I say Wake Up and look at our once impressive Navy. We are now even having to beg to take the crumbs from the table of other nations.
Any modern Navy that wants to project power MUST have its own air cover and that can only be operated from ships.
Well done to the RAF
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I am not the boss of JHC, was drinking lager, have absolutely no knowledge of F1 let alone F-35.
But hullloooooooo I am sure that you recognise we as a nation are so broke that the politicians will take anything that can reduce the Defence bill. With a CNS that appears is more worried about things that float, a CGS allegedly more concerned about Regiments and Battalions that march, of course when it comes to the air, CAS and his team will be all over any organisation-things that fly and the air environment is his core business.
Dry your eyes Princesses, times are a changing and you can't keep up. I do not say this detracting from anyone's professional nature or any particular colour of cloth, but some people have not quite understood how broke we are and what radical activity needs to be done.
Something has to give and it looks as though both CGS and CNS and the politicians are all favouring CAS and the RAF in the current environment. There is a clue in the title.
But hullloooooooo I am sure that you recognise we as a nation are so broke that the politicians will take anything that can reduce the Defence bill. With a CNS that appears is more worried about things that float, a CGS allegedly more concerned about Regiments and Battalions that march, of course when it comes to the air, CAS and his team will be all over any organisation-things that fly and the air environment is his core business.
Dry your eyes Princesses, times are a changing and you can't keep up. I do not say this detracting from anyone's professional nature or any particular colour of cloth, but some people have not quite understood how broke we are and what radical activity needs to be done.
Something has to give and it looks as though both CGS and CNS and the politicians are all favouring CAS and the RAF in the current environment. There is a clue in the title.
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but some people have not quite understood how broke we are and what radical activity needs to be done.
The money is there but the self serving politicians don't get votes for doing the right thing, in fact it's quite the opposite, they maintain power by doing precisely the wrong thing and pandering to the wasters!!!
* Source
In 2013 we will spend 58%, (yes, almost 2/3rds), of our GDP on Welfare, (15%), Health Care, (17%), Pensions, (19%),
Maybe we should change to the Athenian style of democracy where 5000 citizens are selected to make the decisions...there should be room for everyone in the Forces plus a few token civvies...
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You left out the interest... 
Get that payed off and you can double the defence budget... Stop borrowing money!!!!!!!!!!!! If you can't afford all the welfare then tough titties... Feed them and house them but don't buy them cars and flat screens!!!!
Get that payed off and you can double the defence budget... Stop borrowing money!!!!!!!!!!!! If you can't afford all the welfare then tough titties... Feed them and house them but don't buy them cars and flat screens!!!!
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Maybe we should change to the Athenian style of democracy where 5000 citizens are selected to make the decisions
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"Gripper 20 is a lying dishonest tw@t."
The way I read his (now deleted) post I thought he claimed to be a royal butler (or similar).
Same thing I suppose really....Probably kicked out for being a friend of Dorothy
The way I read his (now deleted) post I thought he claimed to be a royal butler (or similar).
Same thing I suppose really....Probably kicked out for being a friend of Dorothy
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