SARH
Ahh the wonderful Samantha; now she knew the oddities of Culdrose better than most)
Well the arguing has stopped!!
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We must not forget that it is only the RAF element of SAR that is being lost. The RN FAA will continue conducting SAROPS using their helos albeit not part of the UK DofT system. SAR is a secondary role for the FAA and I expect we will still see awards being won by RN crews much as they did this year.
Any linkage between CSAR and SAR was an RAF concoction to save the RAF SARF last decade....it was transparent and disregarded by most sensible people.
Any linkage between CSAR and SAR was an RAF concoction to save the RAF SARF last decade....it was transparent and disregarded by most sensible people.
Ahh the wonderful Samantha; now she knew the oddities of Culdrose better than most)
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Overthawk. I despair. Yet another who cannot read. I clearly did NOT say civvy pilots won't take a risk to save a life. I said that they can't take the risk of thinking laterally (with reference to attempting the untested)...NOT the same thing. Does nobody understand english anymore?
Re-read my first post. How many mil guys fly with civvies? Precious few that I ever knew. What does my post say? I have flown with both mil and civ SAR crews. Why might that be? Honestly, arch-criminals need not fear with deduction skills like this around. I have been civvy SAR for several years, but I am ex mil. The difference between the ex-mil and straight civvy pilots I manage is profound. Want strict adherence to rules and a word-for-word regurgitation of the rules - the civvy's your man. Want the job done?....you fill in the answer - it's an easy one.
Re-read my first post. How many mil guys fly with civvies? Precious few that I ever knew. What does my post say? I have flown with both mil and civ SAR crews. Why might that be? Honestly, arch-criminals need not fear with deduction skills like this around. I have been civvy SAR for several years, but I am ex mil. The difference between the ex-mil and straight civvy pilots I manage is profound. Want strict adherence to rules and a word-for-word regurgitation of the rules - the civvy's your man. Want the job done?....you fill in the answer - it's an easy one.
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Mil SAR Captains
I love the way all the currently serving Military SAR Captains assume that SAR in civvy street will be pretty much the same as in the military......Big difference fellas, you and your crew will be civvies, in which case your current bravado which you speak of as the "SAR Captain" holds a little less water. You are simply responsible for the Aircraft, you will no longer be senior in rank to the backseat "blighters" and if you wish to crack on and break the CAA's rules to get the job done You may find that your crew may not wish to risk their civvie necks. No medals or mentions in dispatches for us civvies! And certainly no medical/ widows pension if the Winchman gets broken.
Different ball game all together
Different ball game all together
SAR is a secondary role for the FAA
The award you speak of certainly required bravery but the success of the rescue was due as much to luck as skill.
It is a 'last resort' rescue but don't confuse it with professional SAR.
So....
It seems that in your world Crab, post-2016, no-one will be rescued safely, effectively, or professionally....
As the above post seems to sum up your views on civ SAR as well
It seems that in your world Crab, post-2016, no-one will be rescued safely, effectively, or professionally....
As the above post seems to sum up your views on civ SAR as well
Bl**dy hell Crab, I actually leant fwd in my chair for that one sunshine...nearly got me going - good try
Lucky I know you.
chopabeefer - dig baby, dig that hole.......show everyone how acerbic you really can be. Chip and shoulder come into play just about here.......
Get back Tourist..back boy.
Lucky I know you.chopabeefer - dig baby, dig that hole.......show everyone how acerbic you really can be. Chip and shoulder come into play just about here.......
Get back Tourist..back boy.
sar has been already outlined for the UK.
What happens to these bits?
What happens to these bits?
- No. 84 Squadron based at RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus and equipped with the Griffin HAR2.
- No. 1564 Flight based at RAF Mount Pleasant in the Falkland Islands and equipped with the Sea King HAR.3.
So....
It seems that in your world Crab, post-2016, no-one will be rescued safely, effectively, or professionally....
As the above post seems to sum up your views on civ SAR as well
It seems that in your world Crab, post-2016, no-one will be rescued safely, effectively, or professionally....
As the above post seems to sum up your views on civ SAR as well
I was not referring to RN SAR - they do an excellent job as do the civSAR types - I was referring to the idea that a Lynx crew with little or no SAR training are going to have anything like the capabilities of a front line RN SAR crew.
Yet the assumption is that as SAR is a secondary role we can put the Lynx crews into the same professional bracket as the SAR crews.
Read the words before selecting Daily Mail outrage mode
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Crab, do you know how we make normal RN crews into RN SAR crews?
ISPEC goes something like this:
Training Officer 771 - "Lt Bloggs, we are going to make you a SAR pilot!"
Lt Bloggs - "Isn't that just hovering?"
Training Officer 771 - "Certainly not, you will have to learn to hover next to boats!"
Lt Bloggs - "I'm a Navy pilot, I can already do that, just before I land on them usually"
Training Officer 771 - "Well yes, but sometimes it's at night!"
Lt Bloggs - "Yes, we do night deck landings too, plus of course vertrep and HIFR as part of the OCU and then practise it all the time endlessly throughout our entire career."
Training Officer 771 - "Well yes, but sometimes it's in a storm!"
Lt Bloggs - "Yup, and we have to land on them in storms too."
Training Officer 771 - " Ah, but what about cliffs?"
Lt Bloggs - "Just like boats really, but they move less..."
Training Officer 771 - "Mountains?"
Lt Bloggs - "Yup, done Norway and South of France"
Training Officer 771 - "NVG?"
Lt Bloggs - "Christ, even the baggers do that nowadays!"
Training Officer 771 - "Tricky point of no return calculations with no divs?"
Lt Bloggs - "You mean like every flight off a warship except without the added embuggerance of outhouse and emcon silence...."
Training Officer 771 - "Ah, but there is a lot of Captaincy to think about. Some of the decisions are very tricky."
Lt Bloggs - "Yes, that will be a steep learning curve, but I hope my time airborne around the world from small decks in the southern oceans to Antarctica / Iraq / Afghanistan / Somalia / Sierra Leone / Kosovo / Bosnia (delete as required) will help me find a way to cope with the pressure of tricky decisions."
Training Officer 771 - ".....
........it is just hovering isn't it."
Lt Bloggs - "yup, pretty much. I know the Crabs think it a black art, but in the end we all know civvys can do it so it's hardly rocket science."
Training Officer 771 - "when you say "civvys", are you including Crabs?"
Lt Bloggs - "naturally"
ISPEC goes something like this:
Training Officer 771 - "Lt Bloggs, we are going to make you a SAR pilot!"
Lt Bloggs - "Isn't that just hovering?"
Training Officer 771 - "Certainly not, you will have to learn to hover next to boats!"
Lt Bloggs - "I'm a Navy pilot, I can already do that, just before I land on them usually"
Training Officer 771 - "Well yes, but sometimes it's at night!"
Lt Bloggs - "Yes, we do night deck landings too, plus of course vertrep and HIFR as part of the OCU and then practise it all the time endlessly throughout our entire career."
Training Officer 771 - "Well yes, but sometimes it's in a storm!"
Lt Bloggs - "Yup, and we have to land on them in storms too."
Training Officer 771 - " Ah, but what about cliffs?"
Lt Bloggs - "Just like boats really, but they move less..."
Training Officer 771 - "Mountains?"
Lt Bloggs - "Yup, done Norway and South of France"
Training Officer 771 - "NVG?"
Lt Bloggs - "Christ, even the baggers do that nowadays!"
Training Officer 771 - "Tricky point of no return calculations with no divs?"
Lt Bloggs - "You mean like every flight off a warship except without the added embuggerance of outhouse and emcon silence...."
Training Officer 771 - "Ah, but there is a lot of Captaincy to think about. Some of the decisions are very tricky."
Lt Bloggs - "Yes, that will be a steep learning curve, but I hope my time airborne around the world from small decks in the southern oceans to Antarctica / Iraq / Afghanistan / Somalia / Sierra Leone / Kosovo / Bosnia (delete as required) will help me find a way to cope with the pressure of tricky decisions."
Training Officer 771 - ".....
........it is just hovering isn't it."Lt Bloggs - "yup, pretty much. I know the Crabs think it a black art, but in the end we all know civvys can do it so it's hardly rocket science."
Training Officer 771 - "when you say "civvys", are you including Crabs?"
Lt Bloggs - "naturally"
Last edited by Tourist; 5th Dec 2011 at 19:20.
Tourist, that is brilliant and oh, so true! About time the black art b's' was challenged....and funny old thing SAR is being civilianised. I just hope Crab and his ilk get sifted out in the selection process (I know for a fact that in a couple of civilian helicopter companies being exRN puts a candidate way ahead of a light blue driver with similar hours/tours/etc.)...it is all about getting people who can be trusted to get the job done in a safe and efficient way without all the hand-wringing and post-flight back slapping.
Crab, do you know how we make normal RN crews into RN SAR crews?
Is that why every RN exchange pilot (and most of the winchmen) who does a tour with us never returns to dark blue having seen the light?
BTW Tourist - just remember you are the one turning this into a RAF vs RN slanging match, not me
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"Yup - take a junglie/bagger/anyone - give him hardly any training"
That is kind of my point, Crab. He doesn't really need any.
RN cabs with "non-professional" crew do SAR all over the world all the time. Usually nobody in the UK even notices because they don't register on the system unless somebody gets a medal. I think we will continue to do just fine.
I don't actually disagree with you that it is very sad that the dedicated military SAR sqns (both RAF and RN) are closing.
It is an enormous loss, but not to the public - I very much doubt they will notice any change in quality of service whatsoever - but rather it is a loss to the military. 771 and Gannet give the RN a centre of excellence and flexibility at many things whilst also providing second line tours/embarked SAR flights/etc and training.
The loss is all ours, not the public's except in the wider sense of a decrease in operational capability of their armed forces.
That is kind of my point, Crab. He doesn't really need any.
RN cabs with "non-professional" crew do SAR all over the world all the time. Usually nobody in the UK even notices because they don't register on the system unless somebody gets a medal. I think we will continue to do just fine.
I don't actually disagree with you that it is very sad that the dedicated military SAR sqns (both RAF and RN) are closing.
It is an enormous loss, but not to the public - I very much doubt they will notice any change in quality of service whatsoever - but rather it is a loss to the military. 771 and Gannet give the RN a centre of excellence and flexibility at many things whilst also providing second line tours/embarked SAR flights/etc and training.
The loss is all ours, not the public's except in the wider sense of a decrease in operational capability of their armed forces.