Another Red Arrows mishap? (merged)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 80
Posts: 1,527
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
In this case, the cause of the accident seems reasonably clear cut - the ejection seat appears to suffered some sort of technical problem.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
You have an alternative assertion?
Note the words "reasonably" and "appears".
I'm not going to argue with you. I'm completely open minded to alternatives.
Note the words "reasonably" and "appears".
I'm not going to argue with you. I'm completely open minded to alternatives.
The cause of the chute not deploying appears to be clear cut but the actual initiation of the firing sequence may not be so clear cut and I am not sure that endless speculation will get to the bottom of it,I am sure that we all have our theories of possible causes.
It was such an unusual scenario - I don't think anything quite like this has ever happened before (of course I am aware of other accidental ejections but they were very different).
In this (tragic) particular case I am on the side of waiting for the official report,anybody who 'needs' to know will be kept in the loop.
It was such an unusual scenario - I don't think anything quite like this has ever happened before (of course I am aware of other accidental ejections but they were very different).
In this (tragic) particular case I am on the side of waiting for the official report,anybody who 'needs' to know will be kept in the loop.
I, with others, think the discussion on here has been very reasonable (and having had a brief professional acquaintance with Sean I would be among the first to shout 'STOP' if wanton speculation was underway).
The drogue and scissor shackle malfunctions suggested by the CAA document are one thing, and I hope that the evidence that will be available from the seat itself will allow reasonably quick progress on that aspect of the investigation. The more puzzling aspect of this sad accident is why the ejection happened in the first place; photos of the aircraft on the line showed no evidence of anything which might cause a stationary ground ejection (such as a major fire) and I suspect it is this aspect which the BOI will find much slower to unpick.
The drogue and scissor shackle malfunctions suggested by the CAA document are one thing, and I hope that the evidence that will be available from the seat itself will allow reasonably quick progress on that aspect of the investigation. The more puzzling aspect of this sad accident is why the ejection happened in the first place; photos of the aircraft on the line showed no evidence of anything which might cause a stationary ground ejection (such as a major fire) and I suspect it is this aspect which the BOI will find much slower to unpick.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its worth pointing out that there is a wealth of evidence to examine. The seat itself will reveal what parts have been activated. The aircraft and in particular the canopy and the position of various items of kit will give a fuller understanding of what happened i.e did the MDC fire or did the seat punch through the canopy .
I dont recall any instances of seats being fired off on their own in aircraft so the important thing to find out is what was different to any other crew in.
I dont recall any instances of seats being fired off on their own in aircraft so the important thing to find out is what was different to any other crew in.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Away from home Rat
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cazatou, the two accidents are not related in any form whatsoever.
Until we are informed by the first BOI, it is unknown if AAES operation was attempted or not.
As for the Scampton accident, Zero-Zero ejections are exceedingly rare, usually the preserve of Harrier incidents in the hover (and the zero in height is always a negative due to sink rate, although the aircraft is positive in height). Ejections at zero speed on the ground are usually only test fires by Martin Baker or other seat manufacturers. Only other I'm aware of was Greg Nobles in 1996. However the seat was fatally compromised by impact damage prior to his attempted ejection. I saw the remains of the seat and the aircraft as crash guard, 1 hour after the accident happened, with all items where they ended up. In a zero-zero ejection, other dynamic forces that would affect the seat on engress and parachute deployment in other flight regimes do not exist.
Until we are informed by the first BOI, it is unknown if AAES operation was attempted or not.
As for the Scampton accident, Zero-Zero ejections are exceedingly rare, usually the preserve of Harrier incidents in the hover (and the zero in height is always a negative due to sink rate, although the aircraft is positive in height). Ejections at zero speed on the ground are usually only test fires by Martin Baker or other seat manufacturers. Only other I'm aware of was Greg Nobles in 1996. However the seat was fatally compromised by impact damage prior to his attempted ejection. I saw the remains of the seat and the aircraft as crash guard, 1 hour after the accident happened, with all items where they ended up. In a zero-zero ejection, other dynamic forces that would affect the seat on engress and parachute deployment in other flight regimes do not exist.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: so far south of blighty its untrue!!!!!
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Condolences to the premium aerobatic team in the world...
Sad times for the team again, can any one enlighten us;-
1 Was the aircraft parked on the line and being crewing in or taxiing...before or after display practice?
2 Can accidental pulling of the rocket pack sear alone initiate the ejection sequence?
3 The Drogue has a static line so should have initiated.
Its been a while since the seat phase at Cosford.....25 yrs...
1 Was the aircraft parked on the line and being crewing in or taxiing...before or after display practice?
2 Can accidental pulling of the rocket pack sear alone initiate the ejection sequence?
3 The Drogue has a static line so should have initiated.
Its been a while since the seat phase at Cosford.....25 yrs...
Irish Luck - Surviving Partial Ejection from A-6 Aircraft
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: East of Gibraltar
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I personally welcome the discussion on this topic as I would not have seen the CAA EMPD if the discussion had not existed. (I may have seen it through being shown it on the Squadron but I doubt it). As a current flyer using the Mk10 seat, I need ALL the information I can get to make a reasoned decision as to whether to trust the seat.
Longer Ron - we have asked for information as to why the seat failed to operate AFTER it left the aircraft - we've been told that the info is not cleared for release!! I am supposed to be flying an air test on an aircraft thats been sitting on the ground for 11 months tomorrow - I want to know whats going on but its very difficult to get the required reassurance.
Nutloose - as long as no-one badmouths or slanders anyone, whats the problem with discussing the technical aspects of the failure with some extremely experienced people? If it had been me in the accident, I would want my family to know everything about the incident.
Longer Ron - we have asked for information as to why the seat failed to operate AFTER it left the aircraft - we've been told that the info is not cleared for release!! I am supposed to be flying an air test on an aircraft thats been sitting on the ground for 11 months tomorrow - I want to know whats going on but its very difficult to get the required reassurance.
Nutloose - as long as no-one badmouths or slanders anyone, whats the problem with discussing the technical aspects of the failure with some extremely experienced people? If it had been me in the accident, I would want my family to know everything about the incident.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Longer Ron - we have asked for information as to why the seat failed to operate AFTER it left the aircraft - we've been told that the info is not cleared for release!! I am supposed to be flying an air test on an aircraft thats been sitting on the ground for 11 months tomorrow - I want to know whats going on but its very difficult to get the required reassurance.
I flew a seat, albeit not Mk10, yesterday. MPD was received PM of the 17th, and actioned that evening. Although it required the MB Tech Leaflet, the essence of what is says is in the MPD. I am sure your organisation has access to that Tech Leaflet.
NoD
Longer Ron - we have asked for information as to why the seat failed to operate AFTER it left the aircraft - we've been told that the info is not cleared for release!! I am supposed to be flying an air test on an aircraft thats been sitting on the ground for 11 months tomorrow - I want to know whats going on but its very difficult to get the required reassurance
Also depends on what type of a/c that you are flight testing...if it is a Hawk T1 then you definitely would want to know why the seat fired but that is not ID'd in the UTI as far as I am aware.
rgds LR
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK
Age: 78
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
seats going bang
Was there not a slightly similar event in the seventies on a Harrier at a flying display somewhere in southern England when a seat activated as the pilot climbed out of the cockpit
We must not allocate actions to Sean but it might help others to live a little longer if we highlight potential danger points
I think safety is enhanced by making a list of potential errors and nibbling at them til they go away
It worked for me for 46 years
We must not allocate actions to Sean but it might help others to live a little longer if we highlight potential danger points
I think safety is enhanced by making a list of potential errors and nibbling at them til they go away
It worked for me for 46 years
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...accidents.html Post#8 - I can 'substantiate' it - I was there, but cannot recall the unfortunate man's name. As far as I know a totally unrelated accident, however, caused I think by stepping on the un-pinned handle while exiting the cockpit.
EDIT to add: Steve Beckley,
Note to mods: Thanks!
EDIT to add: Steve Beckley,
Note to mods: Thanks!
Last edited by BOAC; 19th Nov 2011 at 13:10.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys/gals - can I please bid for a return to a little respect on this thread which is about a tragic accident? The 'post' has gone, your (and my) related posts are now irrelevant. End Ex?
I recommend the little red triangle bottom left if you need it.
I recommend the little red triangle bottom left if you need it.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hear hear BOAC.
Tell you what, shall we all participate in a Pprune first?
Shall we all wait until a lot of wise people have considered these tragic events and published their findings and reccomendations?
Shall we?
Mmm?
Shall we all not let Seans passing be in vain?
Shall we all respect Sean and his family?
I think so.
Tell you what, shall we all participate in a Pprune first?
Shall we all wait until a lot of wise people have considered these tragic events and published their findings and reccomendations?
Shall we?
Mmm?
Shall we all not let Seans passing be in vain?
Shall we all respect Sean and his family?
I think so.
