Another Red Arrows mishap? (merged)
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I would suggest that any "Findings" in respect of the Ejection seat would be "Sub Judice" at this time. There are several possibilities which would have to be investigated - including the possibility of evidence that would point to a possible Criminal act.
NB I am not suggesting that there was a Criminal act!!
NB I am not suggesting that there was a Criminal act!!
Last edited by cazatou; 14th Nov 2011 at 18:40.
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We didn't ground the German Tonka fleet. They were obviously aware of the accident, and I'm keen (obviously!) to make them aware of any findings that come out.
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"are only the UK Mk10s grounded? Or all aircraft fitted with them?"
I thought the original MOD Statement stated 3 types of aircraft
but can't find where they announced it.
I thought the original MOD Statement stated 3 types of aircraft
but can't find where they announced it.
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MOD would only state which UK aircraft were affected
When you look at the list of types worldwide using it, the potential problem becomes much larger
Martin Baker - Mk. 10
Click the "variants" tab for a list of users
When you look at the list of types worldwide using it, the potential problem becomes much larger
Martin Baker - Mk. 10
Click the "variants" tab for a list of users
Without a doubt M-B will have been inundated with questions from their prolific Mk 10 customer base from day one but, of course, they will not jump to any conclusions nor will they pre-judge this tragic incident.
However, it is good to see the MAA have called them (MB) into the investigation early. (I assume it is the MAA - not the MOD, by the way).
However, it is good to see the MAA have called them (MB) into the investigation early. (I assume it is the MAA - not the MOD, by the way).
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Been wracking my tiny brain over this...
- Seat firing handle pulled causing seat initiation cartridge to fire
- Harness retraction unit operated, command firing initiated
- Primary cartridge fired causing inner and intermediate pistons to rise, releasing top latch
- Seat rises up guide rails
- Miniature detonating cord trip initiates canopy fracturing system
- Secondary cartridges fire in turn as seat rises
- Electrical connections separate disconnecting seat actuator circuit, IFF
switch and oxygen regulator supply lead
- Aircraft portion of main oxygen generating system block separate
disconnecting main and back-up oxygen
- Personal equipment connector aircraft portion disconnects from seat portion
- Anti-g suit hose disconnects
- Leg restraint lines draw back and restrain aircrew’s legs
- Leg restraint lines become taut and rivets shear, freeing lines from floor brackets
- Trip rods withdraw sears from drogue gun and barostatic time-release units
- Emergency oxygen trips
- Remote rocket initiator operated by static line, cartridge fires to ignite rocket pack
- Rocket pack sustains upward thrust of ejection gun, diverging trajectories for front and rear seats
- After delay mechanism has operated, drogue gun piston fires
- Ejected piston withdraws closure pin from closure flaps of drogue parachute pack and deploys drogues.
- Deployment of drogues stabilize and retard the seat and aircrew
- Low altitude/High speed -
- Seat descends stabilised by drogues
- Barostatic time-release unit completes run and fire
- High speed/high altitude -
- Barostatic capsule operates to prevent parachute deployment above pre-determined altitude
- Barostatic controlled g-switch delays parachute deployment above 7000 ft until speed and g-force are reduced
- Barostatic time release unit operates below pre-determined altitude, completes run and fires
- Manual separation (override) used if automatic system fails
- Gas from cartridge used to
- Free drogue shackle link
- Release parachute mechanical lock
- Operate upper harness locks and lower harness release mechanism to free lower harness lugs, negative-g straps, leg restraint lines and personal equipment connector man portion
- Drogues withdraw parachute from container
- Sticker straps momentarily hold aircrew in seat
- Parachute develops, lifts aircrew and survival pack from seat and pulls sticker clips from clips causing aircrew and seat to diverge
- Normal parachute descent follows
- Aircrew releases either of two quick-release connectors to lower survival pack to end of line
- Survival pack opened manually when necessary
If the rocket was fired unintentionally, would the rest of seat work? I don't believe it would, but anyone care to correct me?
Seems the only rational explanation from 2000hrs of sitting on Mk10s various.
CPL Clott
- Seat firing handle pulled causing seat initiation cartridge to fire
- Harness retraction unit operated, command firing initiated
- Primary cartridge fired causing inner and intermediate pistons to rise, releasing top latch
- Seat rises up guide rails
- Miniature detonating cord trip initiates canopy fracturing system
- Secondary cartridges fire in turn as seat rises
- Electrical connections separate disconnecting seat actuator circuit, IFF
switch and oxygen regulator supply lead
- Aircraft portion of main oxygen generating system block separate
disconnecting main and back-up oxygen
- Personal equipment connector aircraft portion disconnects from seat portion
- Anti-g suit hose disconnects
- Leg restraint lines draw back and restrain aircrew’s legs
- Leg restraint lines become taut and rivets shear, freeing lines from floor brackets
- Trip rods withdraw sears from drogue gun and barostatic time-release units
- Emergency oxygen trips
- Remote rocket initiator operated by static line, cartridge fires to ignite rocket pack
- Rocket pack sustains upward thrust of ejection gun, diverging trajectories for front and rear seats
- After delay mechanism has operated, drogue gun piston fires
- Ejected piston withdraws closure pin from closure flaps of drogue parachute pack and deploys drogues.
- Deployment of drogues stabilize and retard the seat and aircrew
- Low altitude/High speed -
- Seat descends stabilised by drogues
- Barostatic time-release unit completes run and fire
- High speed/high altitude -
- Barostatic capsule operates to prevent parachute deployment above pre-determined altitude
- Barostatic controlled g-switch delays parachute deployment above 7000 ft until speed and g-force are reduced
- Barostatic time release unit operates below pre-determined altitude, completes run and fires
- Manual separation (override) used if automatic system fails
- Gas from cartridge used to
- Free drogue shackle link
- Release parachute mechanical lock
- Operate upper harness locks and lower harness release mechanism to free lower harness lugs, negative-g straps, leg restraint lines and personal equipment connector man portion
- Drogues withdraw parachute from container
- Sticker straps momentarily hold aircrew in seat
- Parachute develops, lifts aircrew and survival pack from seat and pulls sticker clips from clips causing aircrew and seat to diverge
- Normal parachute descent follows
- Aircrew releases either of two quick-release connectors to lower survival pack to end of line
- Survival pack opened manually when necessary
If the rocket was fired unintentionally, would the rest of seat work? I don't believe it would, but anyone care to correct me?
Seems the only rational explanation from 2000hrs of sitting on Mk10s various.
CPL Clott
Clott
The rocket initiator to the rocket pack is a "one way street" in this diagram and is initated by a lanyard:
If set off, I don't believe the rest would function. I seem to remember this in groundschool as well.
The B Word
The rocket initiator to the rocket pack is a "one way street" in this diagram and is initated by a lanyard:
If set off, I don't believe the rest would function. I seem to remember this in groundschool as well.
The B Word
If the rocket is fired then the 2 trip rods which activate the BTRU and the Drogue Gun are pulled as the seat rises, so the post-ejection facilities should work as advertised. However if the handle is not pulled you would not get harness retraction and the Man Sep handle would be locked in.
I have voiced a concern over ejection seats on this forum before. I did three tours in Seat Bays servicing them and three tours on Sqn's fitting them.
Up till the early 80's seats went to the seat bay every 6 months, the 6 monthly was mainly a visual with a complete strip-down every 12.
This then changed to every 12 months, it was not unusual to go out to the Sqn's between this period to carry out minor repairs to mainly fabric parts and very rarely damage caused by the many people getting in and out of the seat (there are levers and linkages along either side of the seat that could be damaged if stood on).
It was then changed to every two years (more bay call outs)
As I left 4 yrs ago I cannot confirm 1st hand but believe this is now every five years and some seats are crated up and serviced centrally with no bay expertise on units.
I remember a senior officer telling me it was 'acceptable risk management' and not a money saving exercise........................ !
Up till the early 80's seats went to the seat bay every 6 months, the 6 monthly was mainly a visual with a complete strip-down every 12.
This then changed to every 12 months, it was not unusual to go out to the Sqn's between this period to carry out minor repairs to mainly fabric parts and very rarely damage caused by the many people getting in and out of the seat (there are levers and linkages along either side of the seat that could be damaged if stood on).
It was then changed to every two years (more bay call outs)
As I left 4 yrs ago I cannot confirm 1st hand but believe this is now every five years and some seats are crated up and serviced centrally with no bay expertise on units.
I remember a senior officer telling me it was 'acceptable risk management' and not a money saving exercise........................ !
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Setting seats off
Provided we don't pretend to know what caused this tragic accident to a
superb flyer it seems reasonable to make a list of possible causes
I seem to recall an event on a RN Harrier in which the drogue gun was set off by the seat being lowered onto a stray wander light on the floor of the aircraft
The unfortunate pilot was thought to have dropped the wander light on the floor and while trying to recover it by the cable set the drogue gun off pulling him and his chute through a small hole in the canopy
We must avoid making silly assumptions but it is worth considering the seat as a unit rather than a group of bits
superb flyer it seems reasonable to make a list of possible causes
I seem to recall an event on a RN Harrier in which the drogue gun was set off by the seat being lowered onto a stray wander light on the floor of the aircraft
The unfortunate pilot was thought to have dropped the wander light on the floor and while trying to recover it by the cable set the drogue gun off pulling him and his chute through a small hole in the canopy
We must avoid making silly assumptions but it is worth considering the seat as a unit rather than a group of bits
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I think the incident you refer to was a RAF Harrier on air test from BAE Dunsfold with a test pilot ( T Scott (RN) RIP) and it was never proved what happened as the seat was never recovered. Although post the accident blocks were put around the saet linkages to stop them from being accidently bent and firing the seat uncommanded. One scenario was that the seat might have been being lowered over an unknown obstruction that bent the seat linkages (preventing the correct firing sequence being followed).
I was there at the time.
I was there at the time.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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In the Taylor Scott accident the seat stayed in the aircraft.
The evidence that finished up on the ground near Boscombe allowed those who understood the seat mechanisms to be certain of what operated (fired) but not why they did because that required examination of components that stayed with the seat.
The evidence that finished up on the ground near Boscombe allowed those who understood the seat mechanisms to be certain of what operated (fired) but not why they did because that required examination of components that stayed with the seat.
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Are the front and rear canopy MDC independant of each other?
Are the front and rear canopy MDC independant of each other?
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From the photos I have seen, the ejection gun had fired..... The front cockpit MDC had either fired or been ejected through, whilst the rear was intact. From my distant memory of hawk sysems, I believe the MDC safety pins are fitted about the mid point on the canopy, on the stbd, by the hinge line .... Are there 1 or 2 pins, not sure whether 1 pin for all MDC, or 1 pin each for front/rear MDC..?
Regarding the question of the rocket pack firing unintentionally, and in isolation from any other ejection sequence events, I would speculate (I'm a rigger, not an armourer) that there would have been huge amounts of scorching in and around the cockppit area, as the rockets don't normally fire until the seat is on it's way up the rails powered by the ejection gun. To launch the seat by rockets alone would result in loads of fire damage to the interior and exterior of the cockpit areas, and a short range ejection result.
At work, I have heard other rumours, that have neither been seen in the press, or aired on PPRUNE, so I will leave them as speculation for the moment. The official enquiry should be definitive, there will have been several witnesses, and, although I have elaborated upon a technical point in response to a point raised by another member.... I will not speculate upon the causal factors.
Regarding the question of the rocket pack firing unintentionally, and in isolation from any other ejection sequence events, I would speculate (I'm a rigger, not an armourer) that there would have been huge amounts of scorching in and around the cockppit area, as the rockets don't normally fire until the seat is on it's way up the rails powered by the ejection gun. To launch the seat by rockets alone would result in loads of fire damage to the interior and exterior of the cockpit areas, and a short range ejection result.
At work, I have heard other rumours, that have neither been seen in the press, or aired on PPRUNE, so I will leave them as speculation for the moment. The official enquiry should be definitive, there will have been several witnesses, and, although I have elaborated upon a technical point in response to a point raised by another member.... I will not speculate upon the causal factors.
Photoplanet, there are scorch marks in this picture...
The Mk10 bang seat jets were still grounded on Monday night so they must have found something serious or cannot fathom what happened.
iRaven
The Mk10 bang seat jets were still grounded on Monday night so they must have found something serious or cannot fathom what happened.
iRaven