Birth Certificates - RAF Brats born overseas
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Birth Certificates - RAF Brats born overseas
Folks
Mrs Ogre is a RAF Brat, she was born in Malta when her Father was stationed over there in the 60's, to be precise she was born in the navy hospital at Luqa. She has a birth certificate which is an RAF form, gives all the details of her birth and was signed by the RAF Register officer for Malta.
Now, she currently needs to get a copy of her birth certificate, so a bit of a google search directed her to the General Register Office. As we are not in the UK, she sent off the forms and today received a reply.
Basically, the GRO can't find any record of the birth. She phoned then, and was basically told they do not hold military birth records (even though the National Archive website says they do), and was told to phone the British High Commission in Malta.
We did some further digging, tried Kentigern House, tried the RAF disclosures office at Cranwell, and no-one can tell us who holds the birth records and can provide a copy of the certificate.
So great and wise forum, has anyone out there tried a similar quest? Has anyone tried to get a copy of a birth certificate for a child born overseas to serving military personnel. If so, where die you go?
Ogre
Mrs Ogre is a RAF Brat, she was born in Malta when her Father was stationed over there in the 60's, to be precise she was born in the navy hospital at Luqa. She has a birth certificate which is an RAF form, gives all the details of her birth and was signed by the RAF Register officer for Malta.
Now, she currently needs to get a copy of her birth certificate, so a bit of a google search directed her to the General Register Office. As we are not in the UK, she sent off the forms and today received a reply.
Basically, the GRO can't find any record of the birth. She phoned then, and was basically told they do not hold military birth records (even though the National Archive website says they do), and was told to phone the British High Commission in Malta.
We did some further digging, tried Kentigern House, tried the RAF disclosures office at Cranwell, and no-one can tell us who holds the birth records and can provide a copy of the certificate.
So great and wise forum, has anyone out there tried a similar quest? Has anyone tried to get a copy of a birth certificate for a child born overseas to serving military personnel. If so, where die you go?
Ogre
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Mrs HH93 is also a Scaley Brat born in RNH Malta in early1960, she has a UK Birth Certificate - I've seen it. It looks exactly like mine from Leeds England vintage 1960; all hand written in Red Boxes etc.
My kids were dorn in Gib and they have two each, a Gibralter ones & the standard UK one too both types issue in Gib.
Not the help you are looking for I know but................
My kids were dorn in Gib and they have two each, a Gibralter ones & the standard UK one too both types issue in Gib.
Not the help you are looking for I know but................
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Same as the above, but born at a British Military Hospital in Germany, both got UK birth certificates issued at JHQ; both subsequently got their own UK passports with no problem at all.
Looking at my children's Birth Certificates, they also direct you to the Registrar General of the GRO (as you have done). The only other information of note (apart from the basics) is that of the entry number in the Register of Births (also numbered) held by the appropriate Air Headquarters. As to what happens then though, I have no idea; but by the sounds of it I had better not lose them!
Gentleman Aviator
Senior daughter was born in Germany,the only teeterling born outside of UK. She has a Birth Certificate issued by the British Consul General in Hanover (nearest to Rinteln) - much grander than that of her siblings - big red seal etc.
It is registered at the GRO, but the "Consulate Births" are indexed separately - she has had no probs finding it, getting copies etc. I would have thought all "furriners" would be similar? [NB - this was 1976]
It is registered at the GRO, but the "Consulate Births" are indexed separately - she has had no probs finding it, getting copies etc. I would have thought all "furriners" would be similar? [NB - this was 1976]
Last edited by teeteringhead; 27th Oct 2011 at 14:17.
Have you tried the Forces Family Services at Innsworth – details below, as I believe they now look after many of the overseas registered births and may have an archive?
Good luck
Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre
Imjin Barracks
Building 182
Innsworth
Gloucester
GL3 1HW
Good luck
Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre
Imjin Barracks
Building 182
Innsworth
Gloucester
GL3 1HW
Last edited by Hilife; 3rd Aug 2012 at 04:22.
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Ogre - Many years back I had to go through the process with my eldest son who was born in PMRAFH Akrotiri. There was no problem getting him a copy in the UK, though I cannot now remember the process.
More recently (say three days ago) I have been lending a hand for one of my daughters who was born a civilian in Dubai. She was first registered by the hospital and later I registered the birth with the British Consul General. We need document the birth and the process has already been started; we have yet the hear anything. What I do feel is that your case is very clearly detailed in the FAQ;s on the GRO web site.
Q1. What records are held for overseas births, marriages and deaths?
Births, marriages and deaths registered by the British Forces and the British Consul or High Commission in the country where they took place, from 1849.
Deaths that occurred in the Boer War and both World Wars.
British Army Regimental records of births, baptisms and marriages dating back to 1761.
Marine Births and Deaths, from 1837, which took place on British registered vessels.
Aircraft Births and Deaths, from 1948, which took place on British registered aircraft.
I have been away from the UK for so long I admit to being a little out of touch with the mindset of government employees, however, reading the above, my feeling is that if they have no record for your case then there is a problem on their side and it should be their responsibility to seek the information they require to make their records complete ! They have a lot more resources and clout to chase wherever they need to close any gaps.
Whatever, I wish you all the best and hope you manage to resolved the issue.
More recently (say three days ago) I have been lending a hand for one of my daughters who was born a civilian in Dubai. She was first registered by the hospital and later I registered the birth with the British Consul General. We need document the birth and the process has already been started; we have yet the hear anything. What I do feel is that your case is very clearly detailed in the FAQ;s on the GRO web site.
Q1. What records are held for overseas births, marriages and deaths?
Births, marriages and deaths registered by the British Forces and the British Consul or High Commission in the country where they took place, from 1849.
Deaths that occurred in the Boer War and both World Wars.
British Army Regimental records of births, baptisms and marriages dating back to 1761.
Marine Births and Deaths, from 1837, which took place on British registered vessels.
Aircraft Births and Deaths, from 1948, which took place on British registered aircraft.
I have been away from the UK for so long I admit to being a little out of touch with the mindset of government employees, however, reading the above, my feeling is that if they have no record for your case then there is a problem on their side and it should be their responsibility to seek the information they require to make their records complete ! They have a lot more resources and clout to chase wherever they need to close any gaps.
Whatever, I wish you all the best and hope you manage to resolved the issue.
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My daughter was also born at Rinteln while I was getting some winter sun early in 1991 - green walled room, no pool or aircon.......
She has a birth certificate issued by HQ BAOR - signed off by a Maj Frank Crabtree. Looks fairly official to me and worked fine for getting passports etc
She has a birth certificate issued by HQ BAOR - signed off by a Maj Frank Crabtree. Looks fairly official to me and worked fine for getting passports etc
Avoid imitations
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My daughter was also born at Rinteln while I was getting some winter sun early in 1991 - green walled room, no pool or aircon.......
She has a birth certificate issued by HQ BAOR - signed off by a Maj Frank Crabtree. Looks fairly official to me and worked fine for getting passports etc
She has a birth certificate issued by HQ BAOR - signed off by a Maj Frank Crabtree. Looks fairly official to me and worked fine for getting passports etc
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Birth certificates
Ogre - My line of inquiry would be the British High Commission in Malta and Somerset House in London. Goggle them.
I was born in Kenya to civilian parents and have a certificate issued by the colonial administration of 'Kenya Colony'
My son was born at the RAF Wegberg while I was servivng in the then W Germany. The hospital staff very strongly advised us to get his birth registered at the British Consulate Dusseldorf before the host nation 'conferred' German nationality on him. At the time all German nationals had to do 2 years of National service. As we did not wish our son to guard some barracks in Schelswig-Holstein in the future, I scooted off to Dusseldorf and got him registered as a British national. No problems since.
I was born in Kenya to civilian parents and have a certificate issued by the colonial administration of 'Kenya Colony'
My son was born at the RAF Wegberg while I was servivng in the then W Germany. The hospital staff very strongly advised us to get his birth registered at the British Consulate Dusseldorf before the host nation 'conferred' German nationality on him. At the time all German nationals had to do 2 years of National service. As we did not wish our son to guard some barracks in Schelswig-Holstein in the future, I scooted off to Dusseldorf and got him registered as a British national. No problems since.
I was born in RNH Mtarfa, Malta GC in 1966 and have the same paperwork you describe.
Back in the 80s, I contacted Somerset Hse to ask about getting a copy as I was concerned that should the day come when I needed a copy, I would have a faff getting one: They said the British High Commission in Malta would provide it. Sadly, I never followed through with getting a copy, so would be keen to know if they do indeed provide them.
Good luck, and regards to Mrs Ogre, who may like to know the old place is still standing but in need of some TLC.
Back in the 80s, I contacted Somerset Hse to ask about getting a copy as I was concerned that should the day come when I needed a copy, I would have a faff getting one: They said the British High Commission in Malta would provide it. Sadly, I never followed through with getting a copy, so would be keen to know if they do indeed provide them.
Good luck, and regards to Mrs Ogre, who may like to know the old place is still standing but in need of some TLC.
Our daughter was born in Naples a few years ago - so she has a US Navy Birth certificate, and Italian one (which doesn't have space to name the father, thereby avoiding embarrasment in Italy of illegitamacy) and I then started the tedious process of trying to get a UK birth certificate through BFG in Rheindahlen. Time was against us becasue of another move (and therefore needed a passport ASAP) so I simply asked the local Consular staff to register the birth. Euro 75 later, the business was done and a passport issued - all in about a week (the process takes longer now that passports are now solely produced in the UK). Months later I was still getting queries from RO2 I A M Jobsworth Maj (Rtd) from Rheindahlen 'demanding' that I registered her birth with BFG. I told him to go away, quoting Rex Specilatus.
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Mrs Ogre would have been born in RN hospital Mtarfa (not Luqa) and the birth would have been registered with HQ NEAF. That's not much use now but the records must be somewhere ! My first son was also born there and the birth had to be registered at the local police station and for the fee of one shilling I was issued with a form stating I had performed an act of birth !
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I was born in Switzerland 2 weeks before WW2; my birth was registered with the consul in Zurich but I never had a birth certificate. After the war I needed one and my Father and I went to Somerset House; my record was located in an Odds and Sods section which dealt with births and deaths abroad, those drowned at sea etc. That said I do not think that there has been anything at Somerset House dealing with these matters for years, it was all moved up to Southport SFAIK.
My daughter was born In Akrotiri and as it was British territory (SBA), she got some variant of a normal UK Birth certificate
Link to Southport Office
Copy of birth, death and marriages certificates
My daughter was born In Akrotiri and as it was British territory (SBA), she got some variant of a normal UK Birth certificate
Link to Southport Office
Copy of birth, death and marriages certificates
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Contact the Director of Public Registry, e-mail address: [email protected] with details that you have - full name and date of birth and if they find the record it could be order through their website http://www.certifikati.gov.mt
Birth certificate request form
https://secure2.gov.mt/certifikati/I...orms/birth.jpg
^^should read ../Images/Forms/birth.jpg^^
Maltese Public Registry Office
The Director
The Public Registry
197 Merchants Street
Valletta
Malta CMR 02
From Google:
The Malta Family History website, http://www.maltafamilyhistory. com, is a real boon to those researching British individuals with Maltese connections, including soldiers serving in the British Army and their families. On this website, you'll find nineteenth- and twentieth-century registers of baptisms, marriages and deaths in Malta, indexes of the names of those buried in cemeteries on Malta, as well as of British soldiers who were stationed there, an illuminating article on the army chapel-schools in Malta and more besides.
My daughter also has the British Consolate Hannover Certificate and has often wondered about duel nationality; well until National Service (Conscription) is mentioned at which time the subject is usually dropped.
My son has a Northern Ireland Cert and is able to claim Eire Nationality if he so wishes as are all persons born within the shores of Ireland north and south.
My other son has a Welsh Certificate. Enough said; especially when the labour was long enough for me to have got down the A55 into civilisation.
Tel: 00356 21 225 291/2
Fax: 00356 21 249 234
Birth certificate request form
https://secure2.gov.mt/certifikati/I...orms/birth.jpg
^^should read ../Images/Forms/birth.jpg^^
Maltese Public Registry Office
The Director
The Public Registry
197 Merchants Street
Valletta
Malta CMR 02
From Google:
The Malta Family History website, http://www.maltafamilyhistory. com, is a real boon to those researching British individuals with Maltese connections, including soldiers serving in the British Army and their families. On this website, you'll find nineteenth- and twentieth-century registers of baptisms, marriages and deaths in Malta, indexes of the names of those buried in cemeteries on Malta, as well as of British soldiers who were stationed there, an illuminating article on the army chapel-schools in Malta and more besides.
My daughter also has the British Consolate Hannover Certificate and has often wondered about duel nationality; well until National Service (Conscription) is mentioned at which time the subject is usually dropped.
My son has a Northern Ireland Cert and is able to claim Eire Nationality if he so wishes as are all persons born within the shores of Ireland north and south.
My other son has a Welsh Certificate. Enough said; especially when the labour was long enough for me to have got down the A55 into civilisation.
Tel: 00356 21 225 291/2
Fax: 00356 21 249 234
I was born in Oz in 1959 - deltahotel snr being on Op Grapple. My birth was registered via the High Commisssion (I think). More importantly, when I managed to lose the original, I sourced a replacement via Somerset House, so that would be my suggested starting point.
Good luck
Good luck
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Dagama, Tiger_Mate... Your kids don't need to worry about German conscription.
If neither parent was a German citizen, and the child was born before 1990, then they cannot be considered German citizens by birth... they would have to go through the full naturalization process.
If the child was born in 1990 or later they would have to formally apply for citizenship... it is not automatic.
If neither parent was a German citizen, and the child was born before 1990, then they cannot be considered German citizens by birth... they would have to go through the full naturalization process.
If the child was born in 1990 or later they would have to formally apply for citizenship... it is not automatic.
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Folks
Thanks for the pointers.
The initial response from the GRO was that they could not find any record from the information we had given them. So, after raising a complaint on the GRO website we phoned (in no particular order)
Service Personnel and Veterans Agency
RAF Disclosures, Trenchard Hall Cranwell
UK High Comission, Malta
Maltese High Commission, Malta
National Archives
Disclosures Navy at Whale Island (because it was a Naval Hospital)
JCCC at Innsworth (Thanks Hilife)
MOD Main Building
....and back again
Everyone we spoke to said "Speak to the GRO" apart from the Public Records Office in Malta who directed us to a website (Thanks Tiger_mate, same place) which gave us an on-line form to fill in. We'll see what comes back from there
Eventually in desperation we phoned GRO again and actually spoke to a helpful human being. They knew exactly what we were talking about, could not see the problem, took all the details and will look into as a priority.
Addenddum: Email this morning from the GRO. When we raised the complaint we pointed out that (in 250 characters or less) we knew chapter and verse what register and entry it was as our hand writen copy tells us. We offered to send a scanned copy, and lo and behold the email asked us if we would be so kind as to do so.
So, if you are in a similar situation beware of getting a replacement if you lose the original, if/when we finally get it resolved I'll let you know where from.
P.S. I told her, if she ends up getting dragged back for military service in Malta I will not be happy....
Ogre
Thanks for the pointers.
The initial response from the GRO was that they could not find any record from the information we had given them. So, after raising a complaint on the GRO website we phoned (in no particular order)
Service Personnel and Veterans Agency
RAF Disclosures, Trenchard Hall Cranwell
UK High Comission, Malta
Maltese High Commission, Malta
National Archives
Disclosures Navy at Whale Island (because it was a Naval Hospital)
JCCC at Innsworth (Thanks Hilife)
MOD Main Building
....and back again
Everyone we spoke to said "Speak to the GRO" apart from the Public Records Office in Malta who directed us to a website (Thanks Tiger_mate, same place) which gave us an on-line form to fill in. We'll see what comes back from there
Eventually in desperation we phoned GRO again and actually spoke to a helpful human being. They knew exactly what we were talking about, could not see the problem, took all the details and will look into as a priority.
Addenddum: Email this morning from the GRO. When we raised the complaint we pointed out that (in 250 characters or less) we knew chapter and verse what register and entry it was as our hand writen copy tells us. We offered to send a scanned copy, and lo and behold the email asked us if we would be so kind as to do so.
So, if you are in a similar situation beware of getting a replacement if you lose the original, if/when we finally get it resolved I'll let you know where from.
P.S. I told her, if she ends up getting dragged back for military service in Malta I will not be happy....
Ogre
Gentleman Aviator
My daughter also has the British Consolate Hannover Certificate and has often wondered about duel nationality; well until National Service (Conscription) is mentioned at which time the subject is usually dropped.
My son has a Northern Ireland Cert and is able to claim Eire Nationality if he so wishes as are all persons born within the shores of Ireland north and south.
My son has a Northern Ireland Cert and is able to claim Eire Nationality if he so wishes as are all persons born within the shores of Ireland north and south.
We too have one from Rinteln, one from Lagan Valley and one from Copthorne!
Turning to nationality problems, I do know of an Army mate who had some problems with his descendants - but you really have to try hard.
His son (born in Germany) married another Patch Brat - also born in Germany. Son had joined up and produced a grandchild for the Army mate - born guess where - Germany.
They did get it sorted, but after lots of paperwork, as the child and both parents were all born in Germany!