"Army to ditch 1800 vehicles in Afghan pull-out"
Thread Starter
"Army to ditch 1800 vehicles in Afghan pull-out"
Surprised no-one has picked up on this yet.
British Army vehicles may be abandoned in Afghanistan | British Forces News
The actual article is in the Sunday Times, but subsciption only. Essentially what is being implied is that the UK is going to abandon £3Bn-worth of MRV, bought specifically for Herrick, when we leave, because we can't afford to bring them back. Assuming that it isn't anywhere near £3Bn as some of the vehicles will be in the UK and further noting that transfers to the ANA/ANP will account for some of these and be a good thing, that's still a lot of money.
Worse still, it appears to be predicated on airlift out (AN124 @ £400k a sortie for a max of 3 at a time). I appreciate that overland to Karachi may not be the ideal route, particularly in a withdrawal, but you'd think someone would at least look at the cost!
The BFBS talking head appears to suggest that the vehicles (UOR) are "owned" by the Treasury, rather than MoD. I appreciate the difference between UOR and "core", but you'd think they'd check all costs in the round.....
British Army vehicles may be abandoned in Afghanistan | British Forces News
The actual article is in the Sunday Times, but subsciption only. Essentially what is being implied is that the UK is going to abandon £3Bn-worth of MRV, bought specifically for Herrick, when we leave, because we can't afford to bring them back. Assuming that it isn't anywhere near £3Bn as some of the vehicles will be in the UK and further noting that transfers to the ANA/ANP will account for some of these and be a good thing, that's still a lot of money.
Worse still, it appears to be predicated on airlift out (AN124 @ £400k a sortie for a max of 3 at a time). I appreciate that overland to Karachi may not be the ideal route, particularly in a withdrawal, but you'd think someone would at least look at the cost!
The BFBS talking head appears to suggest that the vehicles (UOR) are "owned" by the Treasury, rather than MoD. I appreciate the difference between UOR and "core", but you'd think they'd check all costs in the round.....
Nothing new here. I seem to remember hearing stories (I'm old) of perfectly serviceable Bedford trucks being driven over cliffs when the UK mil pulled out of Aden - or is that an urban myth?
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I think it's common practice for the military to leave behind various bits of hardware, when they pull out of a Country. The USA has left countless hardware here and elsewhere. Common practice is to wreck, bury, or burn it.
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No matter how much I loved it, I'm not sure I'd air freight my car back from an overseas tour if it had covered 100,000 miles. I suspect the military vehicles in question might be in the same boat - or not!
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Agreed. But not perhaps when the kit has been bought at such expense and more importantly in such stringent times. Don't think we left anything like that on completion of TELIC, but stand to be corrected.
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I would imagine that many of these vehicles would indeed be UOR's. As such, they would/should have had a limited Safety Case produced (much quicker to produce than a full Safety Case) that would have allowed quicker transfer in to theatre for use under specific conditions. Risk/severity/probability/tolerability etc all taken into account for its intended (and urgent) use.
However, as is often the case regarding UOR’s, if these vehicles were repatriated back home, not only would it entail the inevitable transport costs as outlined in the first post, but would also attract further expenditure in allowing safe and continued use at home. A full Safety Case including homologation/ legislative requirements, compliancy and of course, the eventual disposal costs would have to be compiled, which may affect the overall picture to the extent that it may be regarded safer and cheaper to leave said vehicles where they are.
However, as is often the case regarding UOR’s, if these vehicles were repatriated back home, not only would it entail the inevitable transport costs as outlined in the first post, but would also attract further expenditure in allowing safe and continued use at home. A full Safety Case including homologation/ legislative requirements, compliancy and of course, the eventual disposal costs would have to be compiled, which may affect the overall picture to the extent that it may be regarded safer and cheaper to leave said vehicles where they are.
Think of all the foreign agricultural pests and diseases tucked away in various inaccessable corners of a vehicle; until the British rain washes it out.
The Australians wouldn't even consider repatriating vehicles from overseas.
The Australians wouldn't even consider repatriating vehicles from overseas.
I'd drive a mastiff home for the adventure!
I'm sure if they offered the chance to drive them home, fuel cards supplied, they would get plenty of takers.
I'm sure if they offered the chance to drive them home, fuel cards supplied, they would get plenty of takers.
Despite the inevitable Daily Mail-esque comments this is "normal business" for the MoD. As the majority of these vehicles were purchased "off the shelf" using CPF funding as UORs the MoD has only two options at the end of the campaign. Firstly, we could pay a large amount of money to move them back to the UK, provide a full Safety case (as mentoned above), pay for upgrades to make them compatible with non-Herrick kit and (the real killer) is that the MoD would be responsible for the full support costs for the vehicles from within its' budget - patently unaffordable unless the army give up capability elsewhere or receive an uplift in funds. Secondly, they leave them in Theatre and the FCO makes political capital out of "donating" them to the Afghan government - hmm, which is more likely?
There are aggravating factors; a lot of the UOR kit is made overseas - to keep it would cut UK manufacturers out of UK defence market for several years. Additionally, a lot of the Granby kit that did get brought back was disposed off very cheaply under the RAB restrictions, only to be very expensively (and publically) bought back a few years later...no politician wants those sort of headlines.
There are aggravating factors; a lot of the UOR kit is made overseas - to keep it would cut UK manufacturers out of UK defence market for several years. Additionally, a lot of the Granby kit that did get brought back was disposed off very cheaply under the RAB restrictions, only to be very expensively (and publically) bought back a few years later...no politician wants those sort of headlines.
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The Aust return equipment from other OS locations / deployments (ie Timor) but it is a huge undertaking by the Quarantine service and Customs BEFORE they leave the country.
Not sure what if anything has been returned from Afghanistan.
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Of course our size is a lot smaller.
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Not sure what if anything has been returned from Afghanistan.
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Of course our size is a lot smaller.
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As the majority of these vehicles were purchased "off the shelf"..... and a lot of the UOR kit is made overseas......
it means the forces for once have kit that actually works and should be kept!
it means the forces for once have kit that actually works and should be kept!
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James - i completely agree, the kit is awesome and rather than re-inventing the wheel we should look to adapt them best for future roles. Surely, as the drawdown begins (whenever that may be) there will be scope for getting them back slowly, a few at a time, now and every so often. Can't help but feel that if it's done correctly it will still be a cheaper option than procuring new kit.
Ah, i see the snag - when did the MoD last do anything correctly ?
Ah, i see the snag - when did the MoD last do anything correctly ?
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The Aden stories were not a myth, I clearly remember seeing trucks being driven into the sea on the TV news.
I suppose that makes me old, as well..
I suppose that makes me old, as well..
Last edited by huntaluvva; 26th Sep 2011 at 21:50. Reason: Age related
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Wouldn't it make sense to gift or sell the vehicles to the ANA? It's not exactly like they could do too much damage with them, but surely it would oil the wheels of this Anglo-Afghan relationship...
Or is it the case that equipping a 3rd world army with gear of that calibre is just not the done thing?
Or is it the case that equipping a 3rd world army with gear of that calibre is just not the done thing?
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With regard to the Aden story, the same occurred in Vanuatu when the Brit/French administrators thought the Americans were going to leave all the kit there.
Americans wanted to sell it, colonial administrators wouldn't buy it, so the Americans left it - in the sea!
CABINET // Million Dollar Point
One of the pilots I flew with said it is a great dive site.
Americans wanted to sell it, colonial administrators wouldn't buy it, so the Americans left it - in the sea!
CABINET // Million Dollar Point
One of the pilots I flew with said it is a great dive site.
Thread Starter
The gear isn't particularly offensive in nature, so not a particular drama. The points re long-term support and safety cases are also entirely valid, as is the case for donation to ANA/ANP.
Uum Qasr is of course a very different kettle of fish to Karachi, but I repeat, does everything have to enter/leave Herrick by air?
Uum Qasr is of course a very different kettle of fish to Karachi, but I repeat, does everything have to enter/leave Herrick by air?
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There was a time when there was a large collecting point in Cyprus for all MELF vehicles, many of which were then taken out into the Libyan desert to be used as hard targets for the Army live firing battle run, (mid sixties, pre Qaddafi). Maybe that training area and facility can be resurrected? RAF El Adem once more!