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Red Arrows Jet Crash

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Red Arrows Jet Crash

Old 21st Aug 2011, 05:52
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Load Toad

I didn't mean to convey anger, if I did I apologise. I was good friends with a family, the husband of whom was involved in a mid-air. His wife was told her husband was ok, in Hospital, but sadly the other Sqn colleague involved had died. 40 minutes later she had a knock at the door informing her there had been a terrible mix up and that they had got it the wrong way around. Her husband was in fact dead (the other woman now 40 minutes in to initial grief being told her husband is in fact alive). The woman says that the pain and intensity of that moment she was told, 'there has been a mistake, he is not alive, he is the one that's dead', lives with her to this day.

I suppose my point is that the threads should not need heavy policing on these occasions. We should act responsibly.
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 06:43
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by henry09
Perhaps simply a thread with the first news report of an occurrence with a statement that further 'official press releases' will be added as they are made available to the media, the thread being locked and unavailable for any input other than those of the forum moderator.
Sorry fellah but I disagree very strongly with you! Sad though these accidents are; this is still a 'rumours' forum... Period

Since the Wright-Flyer first got off the ground at KittyHawk, people - both experts and laymen - have been gossiping, speculating, arguing about all things related to aviation, especially accidents! It is human nature.

I think some of you should come down off your high horses here I seriously doubt very much that relatives of the deceased are really going to get the news for the first time from PPRuNe! And what if they do? Is it any different from reading about it on the Beeb's website? Maybe we should all stop breathing because the air may be contaminated!
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 07:50
  #63 (permalink)  
swh

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Henry09,

Not all ejections are injury free or successful. Some of the news stories published stated the pilot did eject however suffered serious injuries. The police statement to the media said the pilot was not with the aircraft, and they could not confirm or otherwise if the pilot had attempted to eject.

We need to let the MoD to get on with their investigation to piece together what exactly happened.

Sad day all round.

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Old 21st Aug 2011, 08:47
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Don't sink View Post
...
The Telegragh and others say Jon is the first Red Arrows fatality in 33 years...this does a great dis-service to the likes of Flt Lt Neil "Clachy" MacClachlan sadly killed while with the Reds in 1988, another great pilot and friend to those that new him.
I believe the incident you refer to happened during practise and that this is the first fatality during a display flight.
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 09:20
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Don't whinge at me, I merely copied something from a news web site in the hope that it was correct. The first part was.
I would whinge at you HD since you are (were), IMHO, a respected poster here.

What was evident yesterday that a level of censorship was going on by the press, no doubt via strings being pulled behind the scenes. When the outcome and name were confirmed by the MoD, the Sky News reporter stated (and he was on scene) they were aware from an early stage the outcome, but had been asked (and largely obeyed) keeping quiet.

Your post (1447) states
Latest rumour says it was Red4 and pilot banged out..
which is unattributed, and I, amongst others, placed undue weight on you passing on unsubstantiated tattle.

Your earlier post was attributed
BBC says: "BBC South Today producer Martin Webster said it was thought to be the RED 4 that crashed in an open area at Throop village, near the Castlepoint shopping centre."
but still repeated details later withdrawn from all press accounts. However, it was preserved here.

Hopefully lesson (as has been learnt countless times) is:
1. Why the rush to be the one to post potentially devastating news to a family, when there is a chance you get caught out later (as you have)? It has hardly added to your credibility, and for me, destroyed what you had.
2. If there is something in a news link, then provide the link - do not cut'n'paste the contents. Then if there is a mistake, the provider can correct it (or be persuaded to withdraw it), and you are protected.

NoD
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 09:52
  #66 (permalink)  
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I am not trying to speculate but I think that initial reports were a little hasty and the press trying to get to the facts too soon.

Loose Rivets says:
Two reports however, seem to conflict: Civilians diving to reach the cockpit. And. Thrown from the aircraft.
From the DT:

"Finlay and I ran across the field. The Red Arrow was on the bank. We jumped into the water, found the ejector seat, pulled it up, but it was clean no-one in it.

"I swam across the river and saw the parachute, and that's where I found him.

"He was near a steep bank, in deep water. He was very badly injured, dead.
I think that the latter gives a more accurate report. I am no expert on bang seats (only JPs). Perhaps a late exit, or could the seat have been fired on impact, is this possible?
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 10:21
  #67 (permalink)  
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I may have answered my own question:

21st March 1984
RAF Hawk T.1 XX251 CFS
Red Arrows
RAF Akrotiri Cyprus Hit the ground during display practice at Akrotiri, Cyprus
The impact forced the ejection seat through the canopy and deployed the chute dragging the pilot out
Flight Lieutenant Chris Hurst Inadvertent ejection
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 10:43
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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In contrast to some of the exchanges in this thread, how very dignified were the words of eulogy of Dr Emma Egging, who had watched her husband earlier during the Bournemouth display. And how magnanimous of her to comment publicly so soon after the tragedy.
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 12:11
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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The point about repeating 'speculation' regarding the cause of any accident, or indeed the condition of those involved is not that it shows lack of respect for potential casualties, but that however we dress it up, it shows utter contempt for their loved ones.

They will be searching high and low for any snippet of information, and will invest massive emotion in whatever they find. They will come here! Put yourselves in their position, because one day this situation just may come to visit you! Then you may not wish people to be quite so 'gung ho'!

This appears to be a classic situation of the facts being clear at an early stage, and in the full glare of our nations media. But the laborious process of informing relatives takes time. They are the only people who deserve timely and accurate information! To many of us it is simply 'news'. To the family these are moments they will remember, with pain, for the rest of their lives.

Do YOU really want to be the one adding to that pain? Think twice in future.

I agree that the comments of Dr Emma Egging were humbling in the extreme. our only thoughts now should be with her, and all those most closely involved. There are people now tasked with discovering the cause of this tragic accident. How about, we just let them get on with it eh? Now that would be a fitting tribute.
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 12:20
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
I don't intend to rumour-monger, but the point is that this is a rumour site! As such, many members will post rumours.... and conjecture, and snippets of information!
Do you remember the BA036 Heathrow emergency landing? A certain captain got ****** over because of rumours that turned out to be completely untrue in the end. Instead of receiving the praise he really deserved, he was left defending himself every day to his colleagues and friends.

A little speculation (based on the facts) can be fine but it usually develops into wild theories which the media pick up on and report to the general public as "words from aviation experts".

RIP J Egging
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 12:43
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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I may have answered my own question:

Quote:
21st March 1984
RAF Hawk T.1 XX251 CFS
Red Arrows
RAF Akrotiri Cyprus Hit the ground during display practice at Akrotiri, Cyprus
The impact forced the ejection seat through the canopy and deployed the chute dragging the pilot out
Flight Lieutenant Chris Hurst Inadvertent ejection


I thought that was Dick Lotinga
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 12:59
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
21st March 1984
RAF Hawk T.1 XX251 CFS
Red Arrows
RAF Akrotiri Cyprus Hit the ground during display practice at Akrotiri, Cyprus
The impact forced the ejection seat through the canopy and deployed the chute dragging the pilot out
Flight Lieutenant Chris Hurst Inadvertent ejection


"I thought that was Dick Lotinga"

Nope. Definitely Curly Hurst.
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 13:16
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Nope. Definitely Curly Hurst.

Many thanks.
Apologies to Dick and his reputation.
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 13:54
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Quote from telegraph online.

Nick Woods, 36, told how he discovered the pilot's body in the Stour.
Mr Woods was enjoying a barbecue with his family about 300 yards from the river. The dozen or so family and friends, including his parents and his three-year old son Archie, heard the roar of the jet at about 1.50pm.
"It came in so low across the field. I could see it was in trouble," he said.
"I just shouted "Everybody inside!" because I didn't know how far it would spread when it crashed.
"The next moment my friend Finlay shouted 'He's down!'
"It just sounded like an explosion when it hit no flames but a huge ripping sound. I saw debris flying in the air.
"Finlay and I ran across the field. The Red Arrow was on the bank. We jumped into the water, found the ejector seat, pulled it up, but it was clean no-one in it.
"I swam across the river and saw the parachute, and that's where I found him.
"He was near a steep bank, in deep water. He was very badly injured, dead. I was pretty shaken.


For all those complaining about whats posted on this thread, be it fact, rumour, advice or opinion, if you don't like it go read another. People have a choice to write what the wish (within reason) on forums, and you have a choice what to read. This is a rumour site and as such rightly or wrongly rumours are posted on it. It appears all the posts about being which red turned out to be fact. Those of you telling us to not post this and don't quote that, why are you reading this thread other than to find out information. As for Journo's on this site pretty sure phone hacking is a better source of reliable info than PPRuNe.
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 14:17
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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The media always tend to report the pilot avoiding habitation when there is a lot of about.
Having read an awful lot of accident reports as a Station Flight Safety Officer, the aircraft turned out to be already out of control in a large percentage of cases. This was for mechanical, aerodynamic or pilot incapacitation reasons.

On the other hand, there are examples of pilots self-sacrificially avoiding habitation, and indeed trying to unaware that a crippled aircraft was out of control. We certainly should assume Flt Lt Egging would have considered avoiding action till we know otherwise.

As others have stated, the initial report may well be able to determine whether he attempted ejection. We should wait for this.

RIP
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 14:46
  #76 (permalink)  
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how very dignified were the words of eulogy of Dr Emma Egging
Absolutely, what a lady.
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 15:05
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WillDAQ....just to answer your question....

It is a possible theory, however the point of modern zero zero seats is that he should have had time to point the aircraft but still eject 'at the last moment'.
Modern ejection seats are way better than they used to be, but they still have their limitations. The zero zero is based on zero altitude and zero forward airspeed....but what still needs to be considered in the seat's "operating envelope" is the 3rd "zero" which is rate of descent or sink rate.

Just to paint an extreme, imagine being out of control & descending at 20,000 feet per minute, you'd need to eject well above the ground to allow the chute to open fully and give you a few swings before touching down......ie: if you pulled the handle just a few feet before the ground, it simply won't work.

That being said, the rate of descent in the posted video of the accident appears to be far from excessive.....which would allow a lowish ejection.

IMHO, I don't agree with the idea he intentionally rode it in to avoid built up areas.....if that was the case, you'd do your best, then at some point give it away....it all looked very benign.

best wishes to his family.

.......but, over to the investigators.
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 15:09
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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A pilot like him will never crash like this by a simple misjudgement. I can only see three scenarios:

G induced Loss of Consciousness (however, extremely unlikely for a Red)

A medical condition (can happen to any of us, any time)

Technical malfunction with flight controls

The Red has always been my favourite group. The tight formations kept in view of the crowd is poetry in the air.

RIP
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 15:42
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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With respect, some of you seem to be under the impression that "the media" and PPRuNe are two different things. They're not. They're sources of information distributed to a readership.

Those who fail to realise this will end up tying themselves in knots trying to justify their own speculation and guesswork while simultaneously condemning other outlets, like the BBC, who are doing their best to feed your curious minds, in a fluid situation, perhaps without the benefit of aerospace knowledge.

PPRuNe isn't separate from "the media". It's part of it. So practice what you're preaching, if you wouldn't mind.
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Old 21st Aug 2011, 16:15
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How much fuel would the aircraft be carrying typically at the end of a display ?
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