How many of the Falklands War Argentinian ejectees were rescued?
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Strange we arent allowed to hold a grudge about 1982, but WW2
Lancaster veteran who saw off Nazis loses battle to stop street being named after German town | Mail Online
Lancaster veteran who saw off Nazis loses battle to stop street being named after German town | Mail Online
I personally didn't say you can't hold a grudge over 1982, what you do is a entirely a matter of personal choice.
I tried to point out that holding a grudge over 1982 was short sighted, counter productive, and ultimately self defeating.......
Your choice!
I tried to point out that holding a grudge over 1982 was short sighted, counter productive, and ultimately self defeating.......
Your choice!
Bearing grudges
I have to say that I find it a little odd that some people should take such exception to a guy bearing a grudge as mentioned previously on this thread. The gentlemen who posted earlier has every right to bear a grudge against whoever he chooses. He was there and we weren't. We have no idea what he went through and so cannot possibly understand his feelings. Just because we live in such PC times I don't think we should be afraid to express our feelings.
As a further example, Charles Hazlitt Upham (double VC winner from WW2) was said to hate the Germans so much that he refused to allow anything German on his farm until the day he died. I wonder if people would have been so quick to question his morals.
I shall now climb down from my lofty saddle and I invite other members of the forum to do likewise.
BV
As a further example, Charles Hazlitt Upham (double VC winner from WW2) was said to hate the Germans so much that he refused to allow anything German on his farm until the day he died. I wonder if people would have been so quick to question his morals.
I shall now climb down from my lofty saddle and I invite other members of the forum to do likewise.
BV
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As a further example, Charles Hazlitt Upham (double VC winner from WW2) was said to hate the Germans so much that he refused to allow anything German on his farm until the day he died.
Interesting - I was present at a social gathering, attended by a wide range of NATO senior officers, when another WWII VC now long gone (but who is still better not identified) created an enormous furore by very "brusquely" refusing to be introduced to the senior German officer present, who had in fact specifically asked to meet him.
On a lighter note, many years ago a colleague, whose father had lost an arm on D-Day + 1, and had similar views to Upham VC, had to tell his father that his new company car, a VW Passat estate, was in fact a Volvo - at which point father said "Damn good cars these Volvos"! And, yes, I do know about Major Ivan Hirst's role in the post war rebirth of VW.
Jack
Interesting - I was present at a social gathering, attended by a wide range of NATO senior officers, when another WWII VC now long gone (but who is still better not identified) created an enormous furore by very "brusquely" refusing to be introduced to the senior German officer present, who had in fact specifically asked to meet him.
On a lighter note, many years ago a colleague, whose father had lost an arm on D-Day + 1, and had similar views to Upham VC, had to tell his father that his new company car, a VW Passat estate, was in fact a Volvo - at which point father said "Damn good cars these Volvos"! And, yes, I do know about Major Ivan Hirst's role in the post war rebirth of VW.
Jack
Why hold a grudge??
Late summer 82 I was in a restaurant with friends, and ordered a bottle of Argentinian Red.
Friends looked at me in amazement, and questioned why I was prepared to drink Argentinian wine.
Because this is a good wine, I said.
And it was.
Why blame the ordinary folk of a country which was the enemy?
It's usually politicians, dictators.............or bankers............who cause the problems!!
And they still do!
Friends looked at me in amazement, and questioned why I was prepared to drink Argentinian wine.
Because this is a good wine, I said.
And it was.
Why blame the ordinary folk of a country which was the enemy?
It's usually politicians, dictators.............or bankers............who cause the problems!!
And they still do!
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But its in the Daily Mail - what do you expect? Its almost as anti European as the Daily Express! Sad that the population of the UK forget where their "roots" really come from. I even read once that Anglo-Saxon meant you were American! Education like that makes you weep.
On learning that he'd just flown over from Lincoln, an American....'lady' once asked a Vulcan navigator in an Omaha bar "Gee - Lincoln. Do you think they named it after our president?"
Ah, bless.....
(Not sure whether he DCO'd later though....
)
Ah, bless.....
(Not sure whether he DCO'd later though....
)
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I, like I am sure many others, feel sorry for the loss of all personnel, on both sides in war.These dead soldiers, from whatever side, were simply obeying orders. Grudges are personal things, but life is too short............
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I would concur, though it is quite a rare book, and there are still the odd unknown (unless they have found the wreck of that Pucara that crashed after getting the only Argie air to air on a Scout AH1).
The body was offered to the Argentinian government for burial but for some obscure reason they refused to have it returned. The family of the pilot came to the Argentinian cemetery on East Falkland where he was laid to rest in a moving ceremony with full military honours.
It was either this Pucara or one shot down by an SAS patrol that had earlier shot down a 3 Cdo Bde Scout which had been on it's way to casevac 2 Para casualties from Goose Green. Of the crew Lt Richard Nunn was killed and the Airgunner, Cpl Bill Belcher was severely wounded.
The body was offered to the Argentinian government for burial but for some obscure reason they refused to have it returned
Yes. It was found in August 1986 in the Blue Mountains on East Falkland. The body of the pilot - a young Navy Lt. was still strapped into the seat. Looked as if he was attempting to cross over a ridge line and didn't quite make it. The camouflage on the Pucara matched the terrain perfectly which was why it wasn't seen for some years. Some eagle-eyed Chinook crew spotted a shred of orange cloth which turned out to be the remnants of the dinghy and an AAC Gazelle crew managed to land and confirm the find.
The body was offered to the Argentinian government for burial but for some obscure reason they refused to have it returned. The family of the pilot came to the Argentinian cemetery on East Falkland where he was laid to rest in a moving ceremony with full military honours.
It was either this Pucara or one shot down by an SAS patrol that had earlier shot down a 3 Cdo Bde Scout which had been on it's way to casevac 2 Para casualties from Goose Green. Of the crew Lt Richard Nunn was killed and the Airgunner, Cpl Bill Belcher was severely wounded.
The body was offered to the Argentinian government for burial but for some obscure reason they refused to have it returned. The family of the pilot came to the Argentinian cemetery on East Falkland where he was laid to rest in a moving ceremony with full military honours.
It was either this Pucara or one shot down by an SAS patrol that had earlier shot down a 3 Cdo Bde Scout which had been on it's way to casevac 2 Para casualties from Goose Green. Of the crew Lt Richard Nunn was killed and the Airgunner, Cpl Bill Belcher was severely wounded.
If memory serves. the Argies lost 3 aircraft during the Battle of Goose Green and Darwin, a Pucara was shot down by small arms fire from 2 Para (pilot didn't eject and was killed), a Navy MB326 was taken down by a Blowpipe SAM fired by bootneck of the 3 Cdo Bde AD Troop (again the pilot did not eject and was killed). The third aircraft was another Pucara which was the one that shot down Lt Nunn and Cpl Belcher and didn't get back to Stanley after he killed the Scout. It was reckoned to have hit high ground in bad weather at the time the book above was written.
The SAS Pucara kill was with a Stinger on 21 May over the Sussex Mountains and the pilot managed to eject and walk back to Argie lines.
Last edited by MAINJAFAD; 17th Aug 2011 at 18:03.
That "Navy Lt" in fact was the Argentine Air Force First Lieutenant (Post Mortem) Miguel Gimenez.
He did in fact the first and only air to air shot down for the Argentine side against a British Scout.
Unfortunate, he crashed soon after the attack but his wingman could fly back to Puerto Argentino.
The position about the remains of our soldiers is to keep them in Malvinas because we consider those islands as part of our territory.
I don't ask to the Commonwealth forum members to understand the Argentine position.
He did in fact the first and only air to air shot down for the Argentine side against a British Scout.
Unfortunate, he crashed soon after the attack but his wingman could fly back to Puerto Argentino.
The position about the remains of our soldiers is to keep them in Malvinas because we consider those islands as part of our territory.
I don't ask to the Commonwealth forum members to understand the Argentine position.
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a report from the USA at the time. Puts a slightly different slant on things Two Argentines visit Falklands for funeral of pilot killed in war 10/04/1986 | Archives | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle
If you are interested about the position of the families of Argentine dead soldiers during the war you can also search for First
Lieutenant Jorge Casco or Captain Casado or Mayor Garcia.
In those cases their remains were identified long after the war end because some of the British Royal Crown followers like to keep Dead soldiers remains inside closets in Malvinas.
After those remains were identified in Argentina, the families of Casco and Casado choose to buried in Malvinas.
The Garcia's family choose to buried in Cordoba and nobody pressed over them about their desires.
Lieutenant Jorge Casco or Captain Casado or Mayor Garcia.
In those cases their remains were identified long after the war end because some of the British Royal Crown followers like to keep Dead soldiers remains inside closets in Malvinas.
After those remains were identified in Argentina, the families of Casco and Casado choose to buried in Malvinas.
The Garcia's family choose to buried in Cordoba and nobody pressed over them about their desires.
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Politicians send the men to war but then won't let the families bring the remains home. A pretty sad state of affairs from any perspective. I think the British did the right and decent thing in helping out. Just my HO.
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Thanks Mainjafad. Bill Belcher is a friend of mine and I visited him in Wroughton hospital on his return to UK so he gave me a full brief of the attack by the Pucara. Little did I realise that 4 years later I would land a Gazelle next to a Pucara wreck on a hill side in East Falkland and have no idea that it was this very same aircraft.
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Sadly the Argentine government refused to have the bodies come home post war and have simply used them politically and therefore with total disrespect ever since.
As far as grudges go, I won't buy Argie wine, pears etc from Tesco. Simple reason being that Argentina is currently being as economically aggressive as possible towards the Islands without actually invading, it is about time they grew up! Not much chance of that though.
As far as grudges go, I won't buy Argie wine, pears etc from Tesco. Simple reason being that Argentina is currently being as economically aggressive as possible towards the Islands without actually invading, it is about time they grew up! Not much chance of that though.
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Cosmiccomet
I, and many other Commonwealth forum members, do understand the Argentine position perfectly. However, we do not agree with it.
We value people, their lives and their wishes above the land they live in. The Argentine puts a greater value on land. Our values therefore differ fundamentally. Despite that I admire the Argentine people and like very much those I have met. My favourite wine also happens to come from Argentina!
I hope we don't have to go to war again because of that difference in values, but I for one am prepared to if necessary.
I, and many other Commonwealth forum members, do understand the Argentine position perfectly. However, we do not agree with it.
We value people, their lives and their wishes above the land they live in. The Argentine puts a greater value on land. Our values therefore differ fundamentally. Despite that I admire the Argentine people and like very much those I have met. My favourite wine also happens to come from Argentina!
I hope we don't have to go to war again because of that difference in values, but I for one am prepared to if necessary.
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One more case worth mentioning is Canberra pilot Capitan (at the time) Roberto Pastran, who was shot down with his nav on the night of 13th June by a Sea Dart from HMS Cardiff. The aircraft in question, B-108, came down south of Whale Point (south of Stanley). Pastran managed to eject after a spiralling descent from approx. 40,000 ft. His nav, Fernando Casado (mentioned earlier by CosmicComet) was unable to eject however.
Pastran landed in the sea south of Whale Point and managed to get to shore. He walked a distance north towards Bluff Cove before he signalled a passing Wessex and was captured. Wreckage of B-108 still washes in and out of the shoreline around Whale Point to this day. Several artifacts from the crew were also collected by a local a year or so after the war.
Roberto Pastran's ejection and subsequent survival should not be taken lightly, no matter what your political leanings. Explosive decompression at 40,000 ft, the trauma of leaving his best friend behind, ejection (never pleasant) and immersion into the freezing south Atlantic, inflation of his dinghy, making it to shore and then walking with the intention of making it back to his lines is an impressive piece of human endurance.
Steve
Pastran landed in the sea south of Whale Point and managed to get to shore. He walked a distance north towards Bluff Cove before he signalled a passing Wessex and was captured. Wreckage of B-108 still washes in and out of the shoreline around Whale Point to this day. Several artifacts from the crew were also collected by a local a year or so after the war.
Roberto Pastran's ejection and subsequent survival should not be taken lightly, no matter what your political leanings. Explosive decompression at 40,000 ft, the trauma of leaving his best friend behind, ejection (never pleasant) and immersion into the freezing south Atlantic, inflation of his dinghy, making it to shore and then walking with the intention of making it back to his lines is an impressive piece of human endurance.
Steve