Aircrew side arms

[Tashengurt]

Only problem with that is that you know how many rounds are in there, but not what condition they are in, or indeed what type of rounds are in there.

You're quite right Avionker, this was a time saver day to day when we did gate guard. The mags weren't personal issue and were swapped over every four hours or so. As I recall the SNCO in charge had to check the actual rounds daily or weekly

[Geehovah]

I remember the first time I tried a Browning 9mm in the shoulder harness tucked into my F4 torso harness. I wouldn't have wanted to eject with that lump of metal by my ribs. It wasn't going anywhere other than staying with me! The Walther was better but it still worried me.

[Fareastdriver]

Seeing that my lighthearted post has been turned into a board of inquiry let us familarise with a few facts.
Leuchers had at that time no facilities for the security of visiting aircrew weapons so facilities like 1 metre ranges and onloading areas were non-existant.

I showed hin the magazines and pressed on the top round to show that they were full with twenty

I told him twice but he refused to understand or believe me. I was, at that time, a Flight Lieutenant and he was a Chief Technician.

an attempt to belittle this SNCO in front of your peers,

What peers? I was the boss.

I would have done my damnedest to get them charged.

I could have charged him on anything from PGC&D to calling an officer a liar.
It was a long, 14 hour, day so to keep the piece I unloaded it in front of him. There was no point in doing it outside as I knew it was quite safe. A gun is a gun. it does certain things if you do certain things to it, otherwise it does nothing. Aeroplanes and cars are much the same.

xenolith

I flew as a professional pilot for forty eight years. During that time I flew all over Europe and the Mediteranian, North, Eastern and Central Africa, the United States and central America, Middle East, India, most of Malaysia and Singapore, China, Australia and the South Pacific. To be able to do this in a lifetime if I had to be

‘and arrogant tosser’

I am ruddy glad that I was.

[Avionker]

Leuchers had at that time no facilities for the security of visiting aircrew weapons so facilities

So by agreeing to secure the weapons for you this Chief was in fact doing you a favour then? He could just as easily have said "Not my problem" and given you the phone number for the Orderly Officer or the Police Flt and left you to it?

I bet he wished he had afterwards.

As for your little show with the weapon I don't care what you say. What you did was not SOP for emptying a magazine, it was not safe weapon handling and was done solely to make you look macho. Arrogant, stupid and dangerous are 3 words that spring to mind.....

[davejb]

FWIW,
the chief's personal weapon would quite likely be the SMG, and he wouldn't know that a full mag held 20... as an SNCO if I were doing you a favour and you proceeded to get smart about it, you'd have been left to sort the problem out on your own. You coudln't have charged him with a damn thing, by the way.

[glad rag]

You couldn't have charged him with a damn thing, by the way.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.

In fact, if this little tirade is accurate, perhaps it would have been better if you had tried.

But you didn't, DID YOU.

[Whenurhappy]

Revolvers v Semi-automatics

An earlier poster referred to the advantages of using a revolver if injured ie it can be fired single-handed.

A sad case where this happened was in Auckland, NZ in January 1963. Two policemen attended an incident where a neighbour had been shot and killed (although the two officers where unaware of this at the time). They were carrying Browning .32 semi-automatics, holstered. The offender fired a shotgun at the two police who were approaching the house and both were injured in the arms, and neither could cock their pistols. Victor Wasmuth, who was subsequently declared insane, calmly walked up to both officers and killed them.

As a result of this, the NZ Police reintroduced revolvers and established specialised armed offender squads to deal with incidents where weapons may be suspected. Although there has been a general move back towards semi-autos, I understand the police on this detail can still specify revolvers (.357 Magnums) if they prefer.

Although this may seem serious thread drift, had revolvers been considered for aircrew who might have been forced to eject - and thus run the risk of injury? In my early days, although I was trained both on the Browning and the SMG, it was understood that if we went to war, I would be issued a S&W 0.38 revolver to protect the crypto on my particular platform - something to do with its US origins of the platform and DA clearance for that particular weapon.

[Halton Brat]

Fareast

I've watched the storm/teacup scenario unfold regarding your post; with due respect to your Service record/history etc, I would offer the following:

1. Chambering a round without good cause is not smart.
2. To do so after a "long, 14hr day" is not smart, for obvious reasons.
3. To do so in a building is not smart.
4. The Chf Tech in question needed to establish that a) the # of rounds was correct, & b) that they were all live rounds.
5. The Chf Tech in question was accepting responsibility for your weapon & ammunition; if this had gone awry, it is he who will take the consequences (and probably yourself, for failing to ensure proper safe custody of your weapon).
6. The Chf Tech in question was 'sticking his neck out' for you; this was your problem, not his.
7. You don't get to be a Chf Tech by being stupid; by this stage in one's career, one has seen/heard of/participated in most of the scenarios that culminate in trouble. A good SNCO will anticipate this, often keeping his Officers out of the mire at the same time. Ultimately, this man was trying to help you & to protect all the players here; he was ill treated by yourself.
8. You are fortunate that he did not make a formal complaint about your behaviour; I know many, including myself, that would have done so.


I have tried to remain non-partisan in this, though I write this from the standpoint of half a lifetime's weapon handling/competition shooting/game shooting/Chf Tech Guard Commander more times than I can remember (complete with several weapon handling 'moments' by tired youngsters)................

I'm sorry Fareast, but you have brought all this upon yourself due to the tenor of your original post.

HB

[Fareastdriver]

OK, I surrender. I wont contribute any more war stories in case I did something wrong.

[barnstormer1968]

Halton Brat.

I cant help but agree with the sentiments of the points you make in your list, but then this whole thread is interesting to me, because it seems that many of the posters have such a small amount of firearms knowledge and skills that almost anything is beyond them (which is understandable given the amount of training they may have).

I think that the poster in questions experience in weapon handling has led to a different way of thinking (that is not to say I agree with that method of unload drill). For my own part, I can say that having carried a loaded weapon for extended periods gave me a different outlook to someone who may: only shoot on the range; shoot in contests, shoot game, or simply hand their weapon into stores/an armoury every night or couple of days. I was comfortable to eat sleep and play while carrying a loaded weapon, but would have also been aware of other peoples limitations of knowledge with weapons and drills (well hopefully anyway)

[Whenurhappy]

Barnstormer,

On a related issue I have been surprised (shocked?) over the years by the ignorance of some Police personnel concerning private firearms.

Just before 9/11, I was transporting my shotguns from Stansted to Glasgow. The cased side-by-side box lock guns were appropriately checked in but I retained the two fore-stocks - 8" long pieces of polished, checquered walnut with little metal locking straps. Without these devices, the guns cannot be reassembled, let alone fired - and they are specific to each gun and can't be swapped. I reasonsed that if someone took the guns without the fore-stocks, they could'nt used them. The two armed police officers who verified the guns on check in threatened me with arrest if I did not surrender these harmelss pieces and place them back in the gun case. No amount of reasoned argument could persuade them that these items by themselves posed no risk - indeed, they would not let them go in my hold baggage, either. Yet at the other end, the guns turned up on the carousel, where anyone could have picked them up and walked away with two fully-functioning (and rather valuable) guns.

Thread drift off//

[Halton Brat]

Barnstorm

I agree with your sentiments largely; however, if I was confronted across a bench/Line Office counter by an irate/aggressive person who, having made safe a weapon, then proceeded to fit the magazine & pull back the cocking handle for unknown reasons at that point, there would be trouble.

HB

[Tashengurt]

I think that whilst everyone may have a different level of skill and comfort when handling weapons we have to remember that weapons drills, like all drills are there to provide safety through standardisation.
If everyone applied their own methods of weapon clearing then nobody would have a clue what's going on and whether a weapon was safe or not.

Back to the original thread, I recall just one of our aircrew during GW1 opting for the Browning over the Walther. It looked bloody enormous by comparison and drew a few envious looks from his mates! All very Top Gun!

[BEagle]

HB, well put! Why should basic weapon training be ignored in such an undisciplined manner - or at all for that matter.

In GW1, we were all issued with SLPs and live rounds. Despite carrying our cannons and bullets around with us for several weeks, when the time came to remove the rounds from the magazines and return them for safe custody, not a single 9mm round had been mislaid.

There was only one ND - by the French. Some automatic weapon of theirs fired off a burst accidentally, fortunately missing everyone (although it gave our tw@t of an Ops Officer a scare - we later compalined to the French for missing!). But the noise was reported, whereupon the senior officer present (an utter ar$e of a Sqn Ldr mover) decided to Take Control as we might be under 'terrorist attack'... Our excellent KiwiAF ground defence WO turned to the offgoing Flt Lt Ops Off and announced "Sir, you might have to arrest me". When asked why, he continued "Because if you don't shut that stupid w@nker up, I'm going to deck the bast@rd!". However, at that point the oncoming Ops Off (looking rather shocked) turned up with the news that it had been a ND - and sanity was restored.

[Yellow Sun]

Whenurhappy

The two armed police officers who verified the guns on check in threatened me with arrest if I did not surrender these harmelss pieces and place them back in the gun case.

The regulations on the carriage of firearms relate to both firearms and components. The police were quite correct in insisting that you should not retain them.

The 1988 Rules on Firearm Security apply. Rule 3(4)(iv)(a) lists the general rules and (b) list the exemptions to them. In this case:

the firearm or ammunition is in transit

Therefore you have discharged your responsibilities under the the Firearms Act when you consigned your shotguns to an Approved Carrier. It is the carrier's responsibility to meet the security requirements until they are returned to you.

Note: There has been subsequent legislation on security pertaining to airguns. The Crime and Security Act 2010 deals with preventing access by persons under the age of 18.

YS

[Whenurhappy]

YS - thanks for clarifying this. In the old days (well, 1980s) I used to move my hunting rifles by air and would simply surrender the bolt to the Purser for the duration of the flight. In the case that I cited, it was clear that the two policemen didn't have scoobie about how shotguns worked, or how they were assembled.

You can be assured that I would have gone to town on the airline operator if they had gone missing - especially as they were a matched brace in fine condition - 31" barrels 1/4 3/4 choke, etc. I had imported them from New Zealand; indeed when I arrived at Gatwick I expected the Third Degree from HMCE (as was). They didn't open the case and just asked what their value was, i then paid the duty (very little) and then headed of by Train/tube/train back to Leeming. A few knowing looks on the Tube, btw!

[barnstormer1968]

Halton brat.

Sorry if I was clear not enough in agreeing with you, and also not agreeing with the unload method mentioned.

Apart from the 'irate/aggressive' part of your last post (as I'm not sure if that was present) I do agree with what you say


As a tangent, has anyone ever wondered why the Brits are just so very anal on counting rounds in and out? Just how much damage could you do with your one 5.56 round overnight (and no weapon), that you could not do with say a minimi and a box magazine out of the armoury the next day

I do of course realise that counting rounds is a very 'peacetime' or guard type activity, and has little relation to actual combat troops.

[500N]

barnstormer1968
It's not only the Brits that count rounds in and out excluding live fire on the range.

One reason is, it's a bit like what you see after an aircraft accident, a sequence of mistakes or problems all line up together to cause an accident.

Now look at a young squaddie, never handled a firearm, gets hold of a live round, everyone oooohs and aaaaahs in the OR's mess that night, then he puts it in his DPM Jacket and it's forgotten. 6 Weeks later near the end of the course, they go out on an overnight exercise using blanks with BFA's on the rifles. One night on sentry duty in his pit, it's cold and boring and he's doing what everyone does on sentry duty, digging food out of his pockets. He finds the live round and decides to load it into his gun. Just as he does this, the Sect Cmd comes around checking on them. He forgets he loaded it and then the next day when he fires the weapon, it blows up.

Everything lined up perfectly for it to happen.

Just my HO.


On the subject of the unload via the breech, I agree with all that has been said.
Halton Brat summed it up well.

[StopStart]

As a pilot I was immortal. I commanded aircraft from November 1960 to Novenber 2008. In all that time I do not remember dying once.

For what it's worth me old, the air force needs more folk like your good self and less of the rule quoting holier-than-thou droids we seem to be inundated with these days.

You are indeed immortal and long may you remain so.

[SASless]

Crapsakes...how much trouble does one get into if one were to home manufacture a Catapult (Sling Shot to us Rednecks)? I mean after all....one can slay a Giant with one! So's I've been taught anyhow!