Aircrew side arms
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Remember one range practice at 10 yards and I cracked at least 4 on target as fast as I could. The marksman next to me managed all 6, each carefully aimed and fired as accurately as possible. I asked him how long it would take a baddie to cover 10 yards?
Later, on the Nimrod, we were eventually issued with Brownings. I asked what the plan was. Were we to shoot ourselves when bobbing about in a dinghy or fire a salvo at a Kresta II as it hove to?
It was supposed to be so that we could guard the aircraft if we diverted. Now a single, or even a double guard, on a Nimrod was not going to cover much with an SLP and 10 rounds. I wrote a case for 4xSMG with 4 mags of 30 - weight would not have been a problem. Like much staff work it was too difficult and got a stiff ignoring.
72 Sqn Late 80`s
Does anybody out there remember the "amnesty" on 72 Sqn in the late 80`s?
My memory is a bit vague but I recall a certain individual exchanging his sunglasses in stores and forgetting thats where he kept his spare round (just in case he lost one of his issued ones). Nice lady in stores bubbled him.
The preverbial hit the fan and we were all on parade as OC 72 Sqn gave us a proper 5 minute rant. After which a weeks amnesty was declared and a large plastic refuse bin positioned in or near the Crewman Leaders office with very severe warnings issued should anyone be caught with anything illegal after this period.
Apparently after a week there was a fantastic collection of guns, bullets and weaponry inside the bin that would have kept a small army happy. There was even an unconfirmed repoort of an RPG sticking out the top of the bin. Anyone else remember this?
My memory is a bit vague but I recall a certain individual exchanging his sunglasses in stores and forgetting thats where he kept his spare round (just in case he lost one of his issued ones). Nice lady in stores bubbled him.
The preverbial hit the fan and we were all on parade as OC 72 Sqn gave us a proper 5 minute rant. After which a weeks amnesty was declared and a large plastic refuse bin positioned in or near the Crewman Leaders office with very severe warnings issued should anyone be caught with anything illegal after this period.
Apparently after a week there was a fantastic collection of guns, bullets and weaponry inside the bin that would have kept a small army happy. There was even an unconfirmed repoort of an RPG sticking out the top of the bin. Anyone else remember this?
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PN I wonder how many had similar ideas, I tried quite hard at augmenting the 9mm with a few rifles but it fell on deaf ears. It was amazing how many false reasons were given for it not being possible 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: England
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Weapons
From a James Bond website!!
"...the primary difference between the PP and the PPK is the barrel length (the PP's barrel is 5/8" longer)"
Also I was told that the PPK was chrome vice the PP that wasn't?? not sure on that one though!
"...the primary difference between the PP and the PPK is the barrel length (the PP's barrel is 5/8" longer)"
Also I was told that the PPK was chrome vice the PP that wasn't?? not sure on that one though!
PN I wonder how many had similar ideas, I tried quite hard at augmenting the 9mm with a few rifles but it fell on deaf ears. It was amazing how many false reasons were given for it not being possible 
"...the primary difference between the PP and the PPK is the barrel length (the PP's barrel is 5/8" longer)"
Also I was told that the PPK was chrome vice the PP that wasn't?? not sure on that one though!
I say chaps - sorry to butt in, Ex pongo armourer here. The "K" indicates "Kurz" or "Short" Hence MP5K, G3K, etc.
Do carry on.
Also I was told that the PPK was chrome vice the PP that wasn't?? not sure on that one though!
I say chaps - sorry to butt in, Ex pongo armourer here. The "K" indicates "Kurz" or "Short" Hence MP5K, G3K, etc.
Do carry on.
There ain't no such thing as too much gun!
I assume your reference is to the legendary M 1911. It was designed/selected not for buffalo hunting but with the intent of stopping and killing Moro warriors during the Philippine/American War. The US Army had found out to its cost that its tried and trusted 38 revolver was not enough gun for the job.
One suspects the Colt may well be better at actually doing some damage that these modern Sigs and PPK things.
I assume your reference is to the legendary M 1911. It was designed/selected not for buffalo hunting but with the intent of stopping and killing Moro warriors during the Philippine/American War. The US Army had found out to its cost that its tried and trusted 38 revolver was not enough gun for the job.
One suspects the Colt may well be better at actually doing some damage that these modern Sigs and PPK things.
(or even in .38 Super 
)Wish I still had mine
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Downsizer, one clue in my post 
One reason was we were not scaled for the extra 80 odd SMG and 10,000 rounds of ammo nor the extra weapons and ammo for practice shoots.
No where to store them - despite the presence of an MCL locked doc box secured in the aircraft.
And so on . . .
Ivan Rogov,
With hind sight and increased experience across roles I can see how amateurish we used to be in days gone by. Things were done and accepted but the rationale was never explained. Aircrew arming was a classic. No one ever explained what we were to use the weapons for. It was also, IMHO, a complete nonsense to unload a weapon in doors as in doors was most likely where you were likely to come across inturders (sic). At least making safe left the magazine on the weapon.
In the MBF we practised parachute drills every so often (as little as possible) on the AEW we never practised parachute drills even at Mountbatten.
One reason was we were not scaled for the extra 80 odd SMG and 10,000 rounds of ammo nor the extra weapons and ammo for practice shoots.
No where to store them - despite the presence of an MCL locked doc box secured in the aircraft.
And so on . . .
Ivan Rogov,
With hind sight and increased experience across roles I can see how amateurish we used to be in days gone by. Things were done and accepted but the rationale was never explained. Aircrew arming was a classic. No one ever explained what we were to use the weapons for. It was also, IMHO, a complete nonsense to unload a weapon in doors as in doors was most likely where you were likely to come across inturders (sic
). At least making safe left the magazine on the weapon.In the MBF we practised parachute drills every so often (as little as possible) on the AEW we never practised parachute drills even at Mountbatten.
Now when I wuz a wee lad in a land far away....I was issued a Smith and Wesson .38 caliber revolver (model 10 light barrel) as I recall. It was deemed the right weapon for pilots as one could operate it one handed if that all one had functioning after some un-nice event. The fact I could operate, load, cock, and shoot a Colt 1911 .45 cal Pistol with either hand alone was deemed extraneous to the argument.
Being an enterprising young chinook pilot....at times I carried several different weapons along with me. The .38 got relegated to the foot locker, and I found abandoned in various locations a 1911 in .45 Cal, an M-2 carbine in .30 Cal with automatic fire capability, an M-16 in 5.56mm, a Car-15 (stubby M-16), a Remington 870 shotgun in 12 gauge, and for a while even an AK-47 in 7.62.
Generally, it was found if one did not have it secured to your person...at best you had to make a trip back inside the aircraft to retrieve whatever it was you left behind in your haste to be somewhere else.
I actually preferred the Carbine, small, light, 30 round magazine, and the ability to root and toot. At that time the standard magazine for the M-16/Car-15 were 20 round magazines. My second choice was the Colt 1911 but loaded with the then hot loaded hollow pointed bullet combination called a "Super Vel Hollowpoint". That was guarnateed to put big holes in our wee brown skinned neighbors and not just whiz through like Military Ball slugs do. I compromised and carried both the Carbine and 1911.
I shall not go into the story of finding myself within conversation distance of some folks with AK's and all I had on my person was a .25 Caliber Colt Pistol with four bullets.....that perked up my interest in finding a way to be better dressed for such situations. It was almost like showing up in Church wearing a jock strap and smile...very embarrassing!
Being an enterprising young chinook pilot....at times I carried several different weapons along with me. The .38 got relegated to the foot locker, and I found abandoned in various locations a 1911 in .45 Cal, an M-2 carbine in .30 Cal with automatic fire capability, an M-16 in 5.56mm, a Car-15 (stubby M-16), a Remington 870 shotgun in 12 gauge, and for a while even an AK-47 in 7.62.
Generally, it was found if one did not have it secured to your person...at best you had to make a trip back inside the aircraft to retrieve whatever it was you left behind in your haste to be somewhere else.
I actually preferred the Carbine, small, light, 30 round magazine, and the ability to root and toot. At that time the standard magazine for the M-16/Car-15 were 20 round magazines. My second choice was the Colt 1911 but loaded with the then hot loaded hollow pointed bullet combination called a "Super Vel Hollowpoint". That was guarnateed to put big holes in our wee brown skinned neighbors and not just whiz through like Military Ball slugs do. I compromised and carried both the Carbine and 1911.
I shall not go into the story of finding myself within conversation distance of some folks with AK's and all I had on my person was a .25 Caliber Colt Pistol with four bullets.....that perked up my interest in finding a way to be better dressed for such situations. It was almost like showing up in Church wearing a jock strap and smile...very embarrassing!
All Aircrew Personal Weapons Are Dangerous!
The scene:
1982, Port San Carlos.
Two very brave Harrier GR pilots. One even braver Chinook crew.
Siren indicates air attack.
Leave very warm peat heated room, and leap, without concern for personal safety, into very wet and soggy ditch.
A few minutes later, five blasts on warning siren.
Oh dear, according to brave aircrew up to their knees in cold, wet, muddy water - that's a ground attack.
Why, while I am here, think I??
We all cock our weapons - of various calibres and sizes - and peer nervously to the East - the obvious direction for an Argy ground attack.
Then an army chap walks calmly behind our fortified trench - and tells us that five blasts is the "all clear" signal.
So the scene ends with many aircrew trying to clear their loaded weapons.
Possibly one of the most dangerous moments of the whole war/conflict/event!
So, perhaps better that aircrew are not allowed anywhere near personal weapons. Reduces the possibility of self-inflicted injury!!
1982, Port San Carlos.
Two very brave Harrier GR pilots. One even braver Chinook crew.
Siren indicates air attack.
Leave very warm peat heated room, and leap, without concern for personal safety, into very wet and soggy ditch.
A few minutes later, five blasts on warning siren.
Oh dear, according to brave aircrew up to their knees in cold, wet, muddy water - that's a ground attack.
Why, while I am here, think I??
We all cock our weapons - of various calibres and sizes - and peer nervously to the East - the obvious direction for an Argy ground attack.
Then an army chap walks calmly behind our fortified trench - and tells us that five blasts is the "all clear" signal.
So the scene ends with many aircrew trying to clear their loaded weapons.
Possibly one of the most dangerous moments of the whole war/conflict/event!
So, perhaps better that aircrew are not allowed anywhere near personal weapons. Reduces the possibility of self-inflicted injury!!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Over the hill (and far away)
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FO2 - there's me thinking the "k" was for "kriminell", or "detective"; must brush up on my German (nice little close-quarters weapon for plain clothes polizei).
As for all the other discussion about aircrew sidearms, I still believe that they would never have been used in anger (or if they had, their use would have been nugatory).
Most of could not hit the stationary cardboard target at 25m, let alone a mob of angry, trained armed soldiers advancing rapidly towards our wibbly pink bodies, firing at us. Haende hoch, Kamerad.
Mr B
As for all the other discussion about aircrew sidearms, I still believe that they would never have been used in anger (or if they had, their use would have been nugatory).
Most of could not hit the stationary cardboard target at 25m, let alone a mob of angry, trained armed soldiers advancing rapidly towards our wibbly pink bodies, firing at us. Haende hoch, Kamerad.
Mr B
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 926
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Haende hoch, Kamerad"
I wonder if it would have been more "kneel" and then the obvious.
This would be because presumably a Russiam Warsaw Pack advance would have been almost a blitzkrieg rapid advance with captured aircrew so much of a problemto take care of as to be not woth capturing (unless for intelligence purposes).
However I really wouldn't know - just speculating
John
I wonder if it would have been more "kneel" and then the obvious.
This would be because presumably a Russiam Warsaw Pack advance would have been almost a blitzkrieg rapid advance with captured aircrew so much of a problemto take care of as to be not woth capturing (unless for intelligence purposes).
However I really wouldn't know - just speculating
John
I was told that the K in PPK meant ''Kompact'', but according to a well known on-line encyclopaedia, it manes ''Kriminalpistoll'' which refers to a model for''detectives'' rather than a pistol produced for criminals! It also mentions ''Kurz'' and also that Adolf Hitler shot himself with his own PPK. So it appears it can be lethal at a range of 3 inches!
Having been a part time pongo before joining the RAF, I was covertly proud of my weapons handing skills and was always of the opinion that the side arms issued to aircrew were going to account for more of their handlers than the enemy. This is borne out by the written account of a pair of well known POWs in GW1 who considered engaging the advancing Iraqis with their SLPs. The decided to surrender, whereupon the first action of the captors was to try one of their Brownings which misfired on first pull of the trigger!
Accuracy is about pratice and familiarity with the weapon. I shot the SLP competitively with some success and could achieve reasonable scores. When I tried the allegedly more accurate USAF issued Beretta, I could hit squat. And for amusement with a previous airline on trips to South Africa, we used to go to the local range and blat away. The only handgun I could achieve any accuracy with was the Browning 9mm. (This is where I witnessed the most dangerous thing in the world. A 19 year old blonde cabin crew with an Uzi!).
As for Dunblane, I'm of the opinion the UK Governemnt is correct. I did a lot of shooting at school and at the age of 18, I had a firearms licence for my own 7.62mm bolt action target rifle. The school club or the club I joined subsequnetly gave no worries, but later I was the OIC shooting at a large RAF station where both military and civilians used to shoot. There are a lot of nutters out there - and gun clubs seem to attract them! I was very worried about a couple of our members - one of which put me down as a reference for his firearms licence application for an M16 rifle (pre Dunblane) without asking me first. I told the Police I considered he wasn't suitable to hold a licence and his response was to threaten to ''take me out'' (I don't think fhe meant for a beer). The very worrying thing was that he was an RAF Officer!
In my opinion, automatic weapons are best left in the hands of the Armed Forces and the Police.
Having been a part time pongo before joining the RAF, I was covertly proud of my weapons handing skills and was always of the opinion that the side arms issued to aircrew were going to account for more of their handlers than the enemy. This is borne out by the written account of a pair of well known POWs in GW1 who considered engaging the advancing Iraqis with their SLPs. The decided to surrender, whereupon the first action of the captors was to try one of their Brownings which misfired on first pull of the trigger!
Accuracy is about pratice and familiarity with the weapon. I shot the SLP competitively with some success and could achieve reasonable scores. When I tried the allegedly more accurate USAF issued Beretta, I could hit squat. And for amusement with a previous airline on trips to South Africa, we used to go to the local range and blat away. The only handgun I could achieve any accuracy with was the Browning 9mm. (This is where I witnessed the most dangerous thing in the world. A 19 year old blonde cabin crew with an Uzi!).
As for Dunblane, I'm of the opinion the UK Governemnt is correct. I did a lot of shooting at school and at the age of 18, I had a firearms licence for my own 7.62mm bolt action target rifle. The school club or the club I joined subsequnetly gave no worries, but later I was the OIC shooting at a large RAF station where both military and civilians used to shoot. There are a lot of nutters out there - and gun clubs seem to attract them! I was very worried about a couple of our members - one of which put me down as a reference for his firearms licence application for an M16 rifle (pre Dunblane) without asking me first. I told the Police I considered he wasn't suitable to hold a licence and his response was to threaten to ''take me out'' (I don't think fhe meant for a beer). The very worrying thing was that he was an RAF Officer!
In my opinion, automatic weapons are best left in the hands of the Armed Forces and the Police.
Last edited by Dan Winterland; 7th Aug 2011 at 04:21. Reason: spilling
''He did not understand this so I had to unload both the magazines on the table through the breech.''
''Why? Why not unload them by hand?''
The SLR magazine held 20 rounds. To check it was full, you pushed down on the top round. If the contents only went down a fraction so that there wasn't enough room to load another, it was full. In the Army unit I was a member of, we never filled the magazines to 20, instead only loading 18 rounds. This is because when full of 20, the spring at the bottom of the magazine was compreesed fully and had little springness left. This meant, the first two rounds had little upward pressure making a jam much more likely.
And don't forget to count your shots!
''Why? Why not unload them by hand?''
The SLR magazine held 20 rounds. To check it was full, you pushed down on the top round. If the contents only went down a fraction so that there wasn't enough room to load another, it was full. In the Army unit I was a member of, we never filled the magazines to 20, instead only loading 18 rounds. This is because when full of 20, the spring at the bottom of the magazine was compreesed fully and had little springness left. This meant, the first two rounds had little upward pressure making a jam much more likely.
And don't forget to count your shots!
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dan Winterland
I think you misunderstood the question.
"''He did not understand this so I had to unload both the magazines on the table through the breech.''
''Why? Why not unload them by hand?''
The key words are "had to unload both the magazines on the table through the breech.'' which implies he put the full magazine on the SLR and worked the action 20 times to unload the magazine by chambering / unchambering every round.What the poster meant (and I would like to know) is why he didn't unload the magazines by hand - ie using the tip of the top round, pushing down on the edge of each round enough to take the spring tension away so that it falls out by itself (holding the magazine horizontally). The whole process takes 5 - 6 seconds per mag.
.
I think you misunderstood the question.
"''He did not understand this so I had to unload both the magazines on the table through the breech.''
''Why? Why not unload them by hand?''
The key words are "had to unload both the magazines on the table through the breech.'' which implies he put the full magazine on the SLR and worked the action 20 times to unload the magazine by chambering / unchambering every round.What the poster meant (and I would like to know) is why he didn't unload the magazines by hand - ie using the tip of the top round, pushing down on the edge of each round enough to take the spring tension away so that it falls out by itself (holding the magazine horizontally). The whole process takes 5 - 6 seconds per mag.
.
This is where I witnessed the most dangerous thing in the world. A 19 year old blonde cabin crew with an Uzi!
Probably a little older than 19 though!