Flying Pay

[TurbineTooHot]

DR, didn't come across as any colour banter mate, it, like you view again misses the fundamental aspect.
Flying pay is not danger money!!!!!

[BootFlap]

Please stop,don't feed the muppets. It's defined by HMG as being useful as a recruitment and retention measure.... FACT!

For me, I'm too old for recruitment to be a factor, but as a retention measure..... what else is there? Everything else I joined for has gone, but maybe they have thought about this, because now (with family and mortgage) it keeps me in, and guess what, I'm happy! NEXT

[VinRouge]

Junglydaz, FP has absolutely nothing to do with danger money and everything to do with retention. Why should pilots in a desk job still recieve it? Well, may i ask, how do you intend to retain your best people who are handpicked to go to jobs which require extensive first hand and up to date knowledge of aircraft and systems? Or, do you want joe average first tourist or even someone who has just recieved a 25% pay cut managing essential areas, albeit from behind a desk? Think of that next time you fly via military aviation.

I make no bones about it, career average, for every day i stay in the raf after my return of service is an equivalent pay cut. Why? Because the civvies, not only in the airline industry but all the other industries that rely on aviation based knowledge would pay me 20% more if i left today and my expected salary after 5 years would be double what i am on now. Why dont i leave? Well, despite all the crap that goes with the job, i love the people i work with. But make no bones if some brown job pongo idiot thinks vin will be sticking round after a 20% pay cut with job offers a plenty out there at the mo. Sour news, i wont, and neither will the vast majority i speak to. People are starting to wake up to the fact that military experience can earn you a lot of cash for jobs that many of us carry as an affiliated duty.


Here is a subtle note. The air force and in particular areas within military aviation are close to breaking point. In 12 months or so with the current outflow rates and the numbers of pilots not only completing licenses but now going to interview, we are going to have a retention crisis. When it happens, if they do anything drastic to fp, putting it back to how it is now will not solve the problem. Nothing short of pensionable flying pay is going to cut it i am afraid. Imho. And i bet the future bill for that will get the bean counters eyes watering.

[lj101]

On that note ref jobs outside

21 Group Captain slots for redundancy - 44 applied.

[The Old Fat One]

The purpose of flying pay is start a thread on PPRuNe every 12 months or so to enable sad losers (such as me) to rant about the purpose of flying pay

My Lud, the defence rests....

Or if you prefer...

My Lud, the defence rests....

[The Old Fat One]

In 12 months or so with the current outflow rates and the numbers of pilots not only completing licenses but now going to interview, we are going to have a retention crisis.

Mate...seriously.

[VinRouge]

Ofo, we will have plenty of pilots. Unfortunately, the vast majority of them wont have done much more than fly between kaf and bastion. All i see at the moment is a long line of our last solid experience of ops outside of herrick queueing for the exits. For example, i know of some pilots that havent done cold weather ops outside of the uk and have one, maybe 2 landings at a big international.

[Ken Scott]

I recently flew with a brand new LCR co-pilot who was doing his ATPL studies. How long can the RAF expect to retain him? Once he's completed his first few Herricks & realised that's all he can look forward to in the future, or loss of FP in a ground job, he'll be joining the long queue at the door......

[The Old Fat One]

I have met a great many RAF pilots in my time and very few of them have been stupid.

I worked at an FTO not so long ago. I know the entry level pay and conditions for aspiring civilian pilots. I know more than a few regional airline FOs.

So how many RAF pilots are up for a starting salary of 15K to 30K in a termingly boring job with "dead man shoes" promotion prospects and terms and conditions heading South as fast as the likes of O'Leary, Walsh et al can manage?

In 12 months...no chance. In 5 to 10 years...maybe.

[BEagle]

I recently flew with a brand new LCR co-pilot who was doing his ATPL studies. How long can the RAF expect to retain him? Once he's completed his first few Herricks & realised that's all he can look forward to in the future, or loss of FP in a ground job, he'll be joining the long queue at the door......

This isn't a new phenomenon. Shortly after a pilot returned to the VC10 force and finished his captain's course, I flew with him on his first squadron sortie....

....it was an 'observed IR' flight for his ATPL....

Surely no ex-military pilot with any self-esteem would lower him/herself to flying for Mikey-the-Pikey's nasty little airline though?

[Junglydaz]

Diablo rouge said:

"but in case he isnt, he should try a NVG approach into a Afghan ****hole illuminated by tracer one night should he need to justify Flying Pay.."

Quite right, but what percentage of the pilot cadre across the three services have experienced that? Not really a valid argument, my friend.

ps. Banter indeed, but this thread was going nowhere was wasnt it?

[Chillwinston1]

Quite right, but what percentage of the pilot cadre across the three services have experienced that? Not really a valid argument, my friend.

A pretty high percentage of Chinook, Merlin and Sea King crews might say otherwise!

[xenolith]

So SP, in this case FP, is a recruitment and retention issue. That may be true, as illustrated on this thread, for the prima donna's in the front seat but what about NCA. As far as I recollect there is not, and never has been, a recruiting or retention issue. So why do they get it?
The really difficult case to make is PAS for NCA, I can't recall any of the first waves who wern't signed on to 55 anyway!

[Corporal Clott]

In the first 4 months of this year 11 Wg Cdr pilots have PVRd or taken their option. That is roughly 10 per cent of our Wg Cdr pilot cadre with many to follow I fear. Still, it might pull up some overlooked Sqn Ldrs this year.

Cpl Clott

[Jayand]

And exactly why do pilots get to use Mil aircraft for ATPL'S? it's a bloody joke! using HM resources and time to feather their own nests!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Originally Posted by xenolith

but what about NCA. As far as I recollect there is not, and never has been, a recruiting or retention issue. So why do they get it?
The really difficult case to make is PAS for NCA, I can't recall any of the first waves who wern't signed on to 55 anyway!

If you are NCA and don't know the answer to this then I guess you must have slipped through the net, if you are not NCA then you will never ever understand, hence post #2

[VinRouge]

Ref ATPL, every pilot is entitled to a certain amount of continuation training, of which, instrument flying is a key perishable skill, especially hand flown assymetric IF. I can assure you, opportunities to hand fly practice assy IF are rare these days. Unless you are saying you dont think the pilots that fly you on your next mil flight arent entitled to practice such a skill that is.

[Dengue_Dude]

I have met a great many RAF pilots in my time and very few of them have been stupid.

You lucky, lucky bastard (acknowledgements to Monty Python)

[fergineer]

Now then DD you know that it is not true Few are? Not some of the ones that have sat in front of me........apologies to the very few!!!!
Tin hat and flak jacket on.....
Banter switch off!!!!

[rathebelucky]

I wouldn't sweat too much on the Wg Cdr and other pilots leaving the service short of bums on promotion seats. There will be plenty of Navs waiting to fill the positions previously known as GD. It does seem that the RAF is rather keen to have a Nav fill the top slot at a time when it has all but made the branch (or WSO) pretty much obsolete.