Dambusters movie; they are changing the dog's name

[sisemen]

As a fully paid up member of Britain (Australia branch), I resent calling the dog Digger. It is surely a slur on the fine fighting men of Australia by comparing them to a mangy black lab wot pissed everywhere.

As Jackson is a New Zealander I can only surmise that the sub-text in this inglorious slur is to continue the trans-Tasman slanging match by using the name in a derogatory sense. I think that Jackson should be blackballed.

Yours,

Disgruntled, Australia.

[stumpey]

Sisemen -

[Jetex_Jim]

Jeez, 4 pages on Guy Gibsons dog, again. And the mods still haven't moved this to Jetblast?

And Steven Fry is STILL working on the script. He's been on with it for years. He should ditch the typewriter and get himself a computer.

[Halton Brat]

Tankertrash, I agree with your post re the Moehne attack. I had a tour at Guetersloh & used to sail on the lake most weekends. But I think that the Eder attack was even more challenging; you will recall that the terrain surrounding the Moehnesee consists of low, rolling hills (not the mountains shown in the old film). The Edersee, however, is cradled in a much more rugged environment of steeply-rising terrain (this is why the Germans put no AAA on this dam; they were sure it was impregnable). So, you come in over the top of Waldeck castle on top of the 1,000ft hill north of the dam, sharp dive to water level at the spit of land opposite the dam, turn c90' left, then you've got approx 1200m before the dam wall. Have a look on an imaging website like flashearth.com & you'll see what I mean.

Clearly though, the Moehne attack featured vigorous AAA defence.

And all this in the dark.................balls of steel..............

HB

[henry crun]

sisemen: You obviously do not know that the term Digger was originally given to New Zealander's in WW1, but has since been appropriated by you lot over there.

First Pavlova, then Phar Lap, will there be no end it it ?

[500N]

"sisemen: You obviously do not know that the term Digger was originally given to New Zealander's in WW1, but has since been appropriated by you lot over there.

First Pavlova, then Phar Lap, will there be no end it it ?"

Henry
No, it won't end. The problem is, if someone says "Oh, we are from NZ", no one knows where the hell they are talking about so we do it to help them, otherwise kiwi's wouldn't get up in the world


And don't forget Split Enz and a few others.

[henry crun]

The list could have been a lot longer but I didn't want to take up too much bandwidth.
In retrospect I should have included John Clarke.

[BBadanov]

Henry: "In retrospect I should have included John Clarke."

Who is he - brother of Helen Clarke?? You can have them both, and we will throw in Russell Crowe and Split Enz.

But where are you getting off with Pavlova, and Digger? Bolloxxx !!

[tonker]

The Enola Gay could land at CAMP David, and be met by Wigger the Ginger Setter.

[finestkind]

Mmmm much to serious methinks

Must admit, very keen on being historically correct but as pointed out (by OLD FAT ONE I think) in a movie nothing is ever portrayed historically correctly. We know history is written by the winner; no actually I mean the script writer or authour. In fact I find myself with a foot in both camps I wish it to be historically correct and F^%^$# the cuddly bears that cannot take life as it was. On the same token I do wish to see the movie remade so that those events of heroic historical significance are not lost. Therefore is it worth the effort to worry what the dog was called??
Unfortunately most books/movies show the main figure involved as being a wonderful chap. Having spoken to people that have been privileged to know some significant war time achievers the comments are generally in line with those of Guy Gibson, arrogant etc. Mind you I guess in those days when, someone who does not expect to survive the day out and does so, they have little time for pleasantries such as manners etc

Thread Creepppppp (apologise for the lack of tongue in cheek (no that’s not a gay point or is it?)
Is history important? Yep then why can’t we get it right? History is slowly bent and distorted by all as each has an individual perspective of what they saw, went through etc. Some people believe Bader was wonderful some would not, well that would be rude to say that.

Henry Crun but where did the original digger come from. Happy to be proven wrong but I believe it was applied to gold prospectors in Australia (Ballarat Victoria). A requirement for a Gold/Mine Licence (Eureka Stockade) and the term came about as” have you got your digger licence”, hence with trench warfare at Gallipoli the ANZAC’s all became diggers.

[MTOW]

I understand that the 'Digger' term didn't come into widespread use until 1916, possibly 1917, in France.

However, (I think it was) Birdwood is attributed with the comment, (within a day or two (possibly within a few hours) of the Gallipoli landings, when it had become quite obvious that a quick advance to the opposite coast was no longer an option), that the Australians should "dig, dig" [forget the whole comment] to maintain their very tenuous hold on the ANZAC beach head.

It might not be too widely known, but the Australians, using the civilian expertise of many of their soldiers, also conducted very extensive tunnelling operations at Gallipoli. Some of those tunnels, many still in very good condition, have only been uncovered over the last few years.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I have a digital copy of the original if anyone would like one for themselves... Rather than waste their money on the revisionist version.

[henry crun]

finestkind: I think the term digger as applied to gold miners went back earlier than Ballarat, right back to the mid 1800 gold rushes in Australia and New Zealand, but that is not military use.
That came later when it was sometimes, but not generally, used to describe both the New Zealand and Australian soldiers at Gallipoli.

However, my reading says that the first use of the term to an individual national unit came in 1916 when the New Zealand Pioneer Battalion were so called for their work digging trenches at the Somme.

"The Pioneers earned the nickname the 'Digging battalion' and the term 'Digger' was soon adopted by the rest of the New Zealand Division. By 1917 it had spread from the New Zealand Division to the Australian Divisions in the two Anzac Corps".

That quote is from New Zealand history, I accept that you might prefer to believe an alternative Australian version.

[fallmonk]

Was there not reports a while back that Peter Jackson had commissioned 3 full size lanc's from a Chinese factory/aircraft builder ???
After he had discovered blue prints for the original aircraft in RUSSIA!
Am 99% sure I read this and there even was some pictures .

Should the dogs name be changed , to follow the true context of the film/real life then it's a straight NO, Do the film studio want it to sell in the states well then yes it needs to change. Unless the let Quentin Tarantino make it then all bets are off !


Pps , maybe let the BBC make it with Amstrong & miller ;-)

[500N]

I believe he built or is getting 10 built.

Here is a pic of the first.

Takeoff looms for Dambusters | Stuff.co.nz

[finestkind]

Sorry further thread creep.

Henry not at all, happy to see the other view.(Punctuation a necessity)
Possibly just substantiates my view of how history gets distorted.
A little extract from Wikipedia
Before World War I, the term "digger" was widely used in Australia to mean a miner, and referring to a Kauri gum-digger in New Zealand. Captain Cyril Longmore 44th Battalion AIF, first recorded the Australian troops doing trench digging practice on Salisbury Plain prior to embarking to Turkey and being called 'diggers' by their mates as the origin of the term.

Anyway back to N%%$#$#. No doubt about it, it was a sterling effort but so were many efforts during that and other wars ( the Swordfish boys)

[The Old Fat One]

@ Finest Kind

I would direct you to the work of Michael Focualt, who said (something like) All truth is illusion, the illusory nature of which time make us forget.

@ 500n

That is, unless we pander to every left wing hippy / gay rights et al who thinks it is all a popularity contest.

In his excellent tome, On the Physcology of Military Incompetence, Dixon points out that the sexually liberated tend to do very well in military command, whilst the anally retentive are generally found getting their men to charge machine gun posts or take on numerically superior hoards of bad-tempered Indians. Quite a few famous military leaders have swung it both ways.

Also, having read the whole thread I can't find any "naysayers" of Guy Gibson. We are (me included) in awe of the achievements of this incredibly brave and skillful leader, even if he was an arrogant ar*e.

[forget]

.... even if he was an arrogant ar*e.

On whose say so? Here's a first hand account.

http://www.pprune.org/2587122-post6.html

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

If this is a sample backdrop to the new film's Scampton,



changing Nigger's name pales to insignificance. I look forward to seeing a wood and canvass replica of Lincoln Cathedral up on that ridge.

[STANDTO]

Like a lot of people I have mixed feelings about Gibson. Undoubtedly he was a brilliant pilot who led one of the most audacious and skilful operations of the war. On the other hand there is a strong body of opinion from those who were around at the time that he was an arrogant, short-arsed little martinet (remind you of any other WW2 RAF heroes btw?). These people often come to the fore in times of war, and we can be admire and be grateful to them, without actually liking them.

That said, there should be no difficulty finding an unpleasant, arrogant sod to play him - the film world is awash with them.

my favourite quote of all time is by Churchill;

"now is a time to try men of force and vision, and not to be confined to those judged thoroughly safe by conventional standards. "

- it worked back then, and probably is a lot to do with what is wrong with much of the way things are done today.