Brize move a farce..
I arrived at Brize just after the 'aileron tension regualtor' saga had grounded all the VC10s in 1983. Once they'd been fixed, there was a huge backlog of transport tasks to clear, so for most of the first month or two I was woken up by the gentle purr of the mighty Vickers WhisperJet taking to the air at 0-dark-00. But only for a few minutes..... TACEVAL VC10 engine ground runs on the waterfront at night were not terribly popular with the Cartoontown inmates either! The local plod lost it once and told the Stn that if the Land Rover with loud call-out air horns (which used to drive around the married patch whenever there was an exercise called at night) ever did so again, he'd arrest the driver! But the best TACEVAL incident was when the Aux Rock Sqn spotted some TACEVAL team people forming up off base and gave chase. The Battle of Burford High Street kept OC Admin Whinge pretty busy for quite some days!
The continuous noise of ground running is a different kettle of fish. Very annoying, BUT the reason is simple. The current level of tasking and availability of assets do not grant the luxury of a 14 or 16 hour engineering day, so there will be a requirement for ground runs at night whilst the UK is still involved in operations in Afghanistan and Libya.
However, low level circuits at night and different circuit patterns as compared to the established VC10 and TriStar (and flying club!) patterns should certainly come under scrutiny. When I was teaching circuits (whether VC10 or PA28), a lot of time was spent instructing pilots about which villages etc. they had to avoid and the necessary ground features to use which achieved this.
Perhaps it's just a question of ''new boys' conforming carefully with existing requirements (e.g. straight ahead to 1000ft aal before turning downwind, with a 1500ft circuit height)? The C130s are relatively new to Brize, but some of the cowboy flying which (some) JATE and PTS crews occasionally used to indulge in, such as cranking the aircraft around shortly after take-off and thundering over Alvescot mustn't become the norm - there's no real excuse for that, no matter how much fun it might be. As for the silly sod in a WOTG C130 who barged into the circuit on an unannounced downwind join between 2 VC10s on a formation run-in and break......
But that was quite a while ago and I'm sure things are more controlled these days.
The continuous noise of ground running is a different kettle of fish. Very annoying, BUT the reason is simple. The current level of tasking and availability of assets do not grant the luxury of a 14 or 16 hour engineering day, so there will be a requirement for ground runs at night whilst the UK is still involved in operations in Afghanistan and Libya.
However, low level circuits at night and different circuit patterns as compared to the established VC10 and TriStar (and flying club!) patterns should certainly come under scrutiny. When I was teaching circuits (whether VC10 or PA28), a lot of time was spent instructing pilots about which villages etc. they had to avoid and the necessary ground features to use which achieved this.
Perhaps it's just a question of ''new boys' conforming carefully with existing requirements (e.g. straight ahead to 1000ft aal before turning downwind, with a 1500ft circuit height)? The C130s are relatively new to Brize, but some of the cowboy flying which (some) JATE and PTS crews occasionally used to indulge in, such as cranking the aircraft around shortly after take-off and thundering over Alvescot mustn't become the norm - there's no real excuse for that, no matter how much fun it might be. As for the silly sod in a WOTG C130 who barged into the circuit on an unannounced downwind join between 2 VC10s on a formation run-in and break......
But that was quite a while ago and I'm sure things are more controlled these days.
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However, low level circuits at night and different circuit patterns as compared to the established VC10 and TriStar (and flying club!) patterns should certainly come under scrutiny.
Perhaps it's just a question of ''new boys' conforming carefully with existing requirements (e.g. straight ahead to 1000ft aal before turning downwind, with a 1500ft circuit height)? The C130s are relatively new to Brize, but some of the cowboy flying which (some) JATE and PTS crews occasionally used to indulge in, such as cranking the aircraft around shortly after take-off and thundering over Alvescot mustn't become the norm - there's no real excuse for that, no matter how much fun it might be. As for the silly sod in a WOTG C130 who barged into the circuit on an unannounced downwind join between 2 VC10s on a formation run-in and break...... But that was quite a while ago and I'm sure things are more controlled these days.
Perhaps it's just a question of ''new boys' conforming carefully with existing requirements (e.g. straight ahead to 1000ft aal before turning downwind, with a 1500ft circuit height)? The C130s are relatively new to Brize, but some of the cowboy flying which (some) JATE and PTS crews occasionally used to indulge in, such as cranking the aircraft around shortly after take-off and thundering over Alvescot mustn't become the norm - there's no real excuse for that, no matter how much fun it might be. As for the silly sod in a WOTG C130 who barged into the circuit on an unannounced downwind join between 2 VC10s on a formation run-in and break...... But that was quite a while ago and I'm sure things are more controlled these days.
You seem to have the typical 'shiney' attitude towards a tactical aircraft, which is rather odd considering your Vulcan & F4 background. The C130 is not operated like an ex-airliner and whilst some things might have been done in the past in the name of 'fun' that doesn't preclude operating the aircraft in a different manner to the VC10 & Tristar. The C130 needs to do a great more visual flying than the rest of the Brize aircraft, especially at night, because that's how they're flown operationally.
As for 'cranking the aircraft around shortly after take-off and thundering over Alvescot' if we did we'd turn well inside that village as we don't need quite so much runway as you did.
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The nav claimed he had not slept at all due to the noise and IIRC had, as a result of his fatigue, made a simple but important error
You argue, quite correctly, the value to aircrew of being properly rested and fatigue-free.
We don't have the luxury with 'Afghan war or not' of leaving our assets on the ground overnight doing nothing - aviation business is a 24hr one, either engineering or flying.
If engine-runs and any other rects for that matter can only occur during daylight hours, then you will confine aircrew duty hours to flying through the night and hence be a greater risk to flight safety as you yourself highlight!
(incidentally, a large proportion of flying is already at night and has been highlighted as one of our greatest risk factors in current ops)
What would you prefer???
Any sensible pilot doesn't go buying a house near a Fire/Ambulance Stn or Blasting Quarry...i'd suggest others who value a fatigue-free life are equally sensible!
Last edited by Uncle Ginsters; 5th Aug 2011 at 13:07.
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Ken,
I suspect that in days gone by someone has either failed to make the cut for Albert or an Albert crew member has had a one time "intimate knowledge" moment with a close family member, not much else would explain the continual Conwayesque whine when ever Albert enters the conversation
I suspect that in days gone by someone has either failed to make the cut for Albert or an Albert crew member has had a one time "intimate knowledge" moment with a close family member, not much else would explain the continual Conwayesque whine when ever Albert enters the conversation
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Brian 48Nav
If I recall correctly the Navigator on the VC10 decided to use a non standard Navigation technique for the crossing - ignoring the requirement for 2 navigators when using that technique which required maintaining a constant Magnetic Heading whilst adjusting the Variation to alter Course. He also neglected to inform the Aircraft Captain of his intentions.
Unfortunately, the Navigator applied the Variation changes the wrong way and the aircraft changed course to Starboard at the almost imperceptible rate of approx 2 degrees per minute.
When eventually located by US Air Defence Radar they were several hundred miles off course over Greenland heading roughly NNE - still turning right.
If I recall correctly the Navigator on the VC10 decided to use a non standard Navigation technique for the crossing - ignoring the requirement for 2 navigators when using that technique which required maintaining a constant Magnetic Heading whilst adjusting the Variation to alter Course. He also neglected to inform the Aircraft Captain of his intentions.
Unfortunately, the Navigator applied the Variation changes the wrong way and the aircraft changed course to Starboard at the almost imperceptible rate of approx 2 degrees per minute.
When eventually located by US Air Defence Radar they were several hundred miles off course over Greenland heading roughly NNE - still turning right.
Last edited by cazatou; 5th Aug 2011 at 13:49.
Brian 48nav, yes, 'cold war' is frequently used these days as a sneering description of those who flew in the 70s and 80s, it seems....
Leaving aside Ken Scott's irrelevant personal insults, I have to ask why the C130 visual circuit has to be any tighter than the VC10/TriStar visual circuit? Of course because it's slower and can use larger angles of bank in the circuit, it can fly tighter circuits more comfortably than can a VC10 or TriStar. But just because it can doesn't necessarily mean it should.
Maybe Lyneham should be available by NOTAM as an RLG for C130s, with just a local controller and crash/rescue crew? Or would that be politically unacceptable?
The jet circuit at Brize was always a compromise between training needs and noise; it used to be much busier in the 1980s than it is now; we also flew low level circuits until they were banned in about 1985.
(Incidentally, PTS departures are usually from the intersection, so low level turns over Alvescot were certainly noted on many occasions. But that's water under the bridge.)
The VC10/Greenland saga is still available on line if you look hard enough - and is a classic example of poor CRM from getting out of bed onwards!
Leaving aside Ken Scott's irrelevant personal insults, I have to ask why the C130 visual circuit has to be any tighter than the VC10/TriStar visual circuit? Of course because it's slower and can use larger angles of bank in the circuit, it can fly tighter circuits more comfortably than can a VC10 or TriStar. But just because it can doesn't necessarily mean it should.
Maybe Lyneham should be available by NOTAM as an RLG for C130s, with just a local controller and crash/rescue crew? Or would that be politically unacceptable?
The jet circuit at Brize was always a compromise between training needs and noise; it used to be much busier in the 1980s than it is now; we also flew low level circuits until they were banned in about 1985.
(Incidentally, PTS departures are usually from the intersection, so low level turns over Alvescot were certainly noted on many occasions. But that's water under the bridge.)
The VC10/Greenland saga is still available on line if you look hard enough - and is a classic example of poor CRM from getting out of bed onwards!
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Brian 48Nav
If you search the web you should be able to find the Air Clues article(s) regarding that flight and the subsequent BOI. I had a copy of the Air Clues article on the wall of my Office at HQ 1 Gp.
As for spending long weekends in the Carribean in the late '60s - I was spending 6 to 8 weeks at a time out there!! The Hotel was only 3* but it was right next to beach.
If you search the web you should be able to find the Air Clues article(s) regarding that flight and the subsequent BOI. I had a copy of the Air Clues article on the wall of my Office at HQ 1 Gp.
As for spending long weekends in the Carribean in the late '60s - I was spending 6 to 8 weeks at a time out there!! The Hotel was only 3* but it was right next to beach.
Last edited by cazatou; 5th Aug 2011 at 14:46.
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The crew left the bar early because they had to make an early start next day but the navigator had some difficulty in getting off to sleep because a 'beat group' was making a loud noise in another Mess nearby.
Incidents and Accidents
When I first arrived at Lyneham in 1967 - before the bund was built - I remember being disturbed for the first few nights by Hercules ground running. After the first week, they didn't bother me at all. Since I was on shifts I also had to get used to the noise during the day too. My room in the mess was about 100 yards from and facing the Calne Strip and didn't have double glazing.
In those days, jet/aircraft noise was considered the sound of freedom.
In those days, jet/aircraft noise was considered the sound of freedom.
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"To assert that people near Brize have had 8 years to move away is complete tosh! This move may have been cancelled at any time over that period!"
Indeed Brian.
"May" being the operative word. But it wasnt, was it?
If thats how you're meant to plan the one most important purchase of your life, not taking into account all the known local variables - hoping that something that is planned to happen may not happen - be it the Brize move, building on local flood plains, etc etc - and how they might impact on you, then on you go, thats how situations like this happen.
You see whats going to happen, you ask yourself how could this affect me and mine, can I put up with it? If yes, how to minimise the impact? If no, and the odds on are that you cant stand it, then how to get away? Or, if you're really lucky and you're all organised locally, how do we go about trying to stop "it" from happening, if we can?
Eitherway, 8 years is a long enough time to see which way the wind is blowing, economically and in this case politically and militarily. More than enough.
At least the locals are likely to see a lot of other tangible benefits - a possible increase in local employment opportunities, keeping a few more of the otherwise local unemployables off the dole, plus the usual opportunities for local entrepreneurs - takeaways, minicab firms, cleaning firms and all the other attendant small businesses you usually find in reasonably close proximity to an RAF unit of any kind - in return for paying the price of having a busy airfield carrying out some night ground runs during this period of busy military activity whilst there are conflicts going on around the world that British forces are involved in.
Then think about the bloody rest of us 30 miles east of you, along the prospective route of that blasted £20bn+ HS2 vanity project, which is likely to carry on all day and night whether theres a war on or not, where we along the route will see sod all in the way of benefits of any kind, let alone any tangible ones, for having a high speed railway line that nobody wants, on an embankment running within 800 metres of your front door.
Try the prospect of sleeping between 12 hour nightshifts with that going on added to a 100 mile commute every day to get to and from work and then tell me you're hard done by, in comparison.
Like them, using the above example, going forward, I have to make a judgement call. What is the potential impact on me and my family and my sanity and my work, should the project go ahead. Can I put up with it, or do I have to sell the house, quite possibly at a loss, and move somewhere else? And the answer is at the moment, I'm not sure.
I do know one thing for a fact though.
If I sit on my khyber for the next 7 or 8 years, hoping it'll go away and the damn thing gets built anyway and I've done nothing, then the only person I'll be able to blame for the end results is myself.
Indeed Brian.
"May" being the operative word. But it wasnt, was it?
If thats how you're meant to plan the one most important purchase of your life, not taking into account all the known local variables - hoping that something that is planned to happen may not happen - be it the Brize move, building on local flood plains, etc etc - and how they might impact on you, then on you go, thats how situations like this happen.
You see whats going to happen, you ask yourself how could this affect me and mine, can I put up with it? If yes, how to minimise the impact? If no, and the odds on are that you cant stand it, then how to get away? Or, if you're really lucky and you're all organised locally, how do we go about trying to stop "it" from happening, if we can?
Eitherway, 8 years is a long enough time to see which way the wind is blowing, economically and in this case politically and militarily. More than enough.
At least the locals are likely to see a lot of other tangible benefits - a possible increase in local employment opportunities, keeping a few more of the otherwise local unemployables off the dole, plus the usual opportunities for local entrepreneurs - takeaways, minicab firms, cleaning firms and all the other attendant small businesses you usually find in reasonably close proximity to an RAF unit of any kind - in return for paying the price of having a busy airfield carrying out some night ground runs during this period of busy military activity whilst there are conflicts going on around the world that British forces are involved in.
Then think about the bloody rest of us 30 miles east of you, along the prospective route of that blasted £20bn+ HS2 vanity project, which is likely to carry on all day and night whether theres a war on or not, where we along the route will see sod all in the way of benefits of any kind, let alone any tangible ones, for having a high speed railway line that nobody wants, on an embankment running within 800 metres of your front door.
Try the prospect of sleeping between 12 hour nightshifts with that going on added to a 100 mile commute every day to get to and from work and then tell me you're hard done by, in comparison.
Like them, using the above example, going forward, I have to make a judgement call. What is the potential impact on me and my family and my sanity and my work, should the project go ahead. Can I put up with it, or do I have to sell the house, quite possibly at a loss, and move somewhere else? And the answer is at the moment, I'm not sure.
I do know one thing for a fact though.
If I sit on my khyber for the next 7 or 8 years, hoping it'll go away and the damn thing gets built anyway and I've done nothing, then the only person I'll be able to blame for the end results is myself.
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Maybe Lyneham should be available by NOTAM as an RLG for C130s, with just a local controller and crash/rescue crew? Or would that be politically unacceptable?
Unacceptable or what it scheduled to happen in September for a week!
Unacceptable or what it scheduled to happen in September for a week!
That's rather a terse response to a reasoanable post, Runaway Gun.
Regrettably, an attitude becoming rather prevalent these days...
Regrettably, an attitude becoming rather prevalent these days...
Sorry Beagle, I forgot to incluse a smiley face.
But seriously, when someone complains about us doing an important job, in spite of massive budget cuts and minimal public support, and then write a short essay how they did things different flying Noah's Ark when they were a lad - it kind of reeks of a lack of understanding, and I take it as an insult.
But seriously, when someone complains about us doing an important job, in spite of massive budget cuts and minimal public support, and then write a short essay how they did things different flying Noah's Ark when they were a lad - it kind of reeks of a lack of understanding, and I take it as an insult.
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Leaving aside Ken Scott's irrelevant personal insults
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I have to ask why the C130 visual circuit has to be any tighter than the VC10/TriStar visual circuit? Of course because it's slower and can use larger angles of bank in the circuit, it can fly tighter circuits more comfortably than can a VC10 or TriStar.
Perhaps it's just a question of ''new boys' conforming carefully with existing requirements
The C130 flies a rate one turn (about 22 degs) in the circuit, which gives a downwind spacing of about 1.5nm. We could fly wider circuits by using less bank but to what purpose? Just to be the same as a Tristar/ VC10?
The second quote epitomises your attitude which seems to be that the C130s will conform to the working practices at Brize. This isn't school where the new boys have to learn the ropes from the old lags. This is an opportunity for the Brize squadrons to learn 'best practice' from the C130s, and vice versa too. There are many things we can teach each other - it's not just a matter of the C130s being absorbed.
Sorry Brian, I guess after having to do more with less then eventually something will snap. Call it stretch but not overstretch.. It was my turn this week.
We have a job to do, doing more with less, and then hear the opinion that the job is not justified.
It sort of reminds me of Jack Nicholson's gripe in a Few Good Men, where he's tasked with protecting the country, and then the country dares to make him justify how he provides that safety.
Think I better have some milk and a lie down
We have a job to do, doing more with less, and then hear the opinion that the job is not justified.
It sort of reminds me of Jack Nicholson's gripe in a Few Good Men, where he's tasked with protecting the country, and then the country dares to make him justify how he provides that safety.
Think I better have some milk and a lie down
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Don't worry, HS2 will not get built, its too expensive. We need more rail capacity, not more speed. Much more likely that the Fairford Branch will get rebuilt! The Oxford-Worcester line is already being redoubled. Sod all to do with RAF Brize Norton, except that it once had 2 railway stations (Brize Norton & Bampton and Carterton). Must stop thread drift....too late.