MoD to buy 5 x P8 from USA - maybe
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
In the Gulf of Sirte, OTOH, it may have been useful to have LRMP.
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Putting aside this inter service jibing.....it is clear that both the RN & the RAF were shocked at the political decision to axe the MRA4 and it's implications. Implications that mean that there has been much scrabbling to pull together some sort of Revised ASW and LRMPA strategy that fills the gap both in the short term, mid term and in the post 2020 future. Seems to me there might be some real cobbling together needed if any sort of long range fixed wing capability is to be funded in the next few years..and who owns and runs it is secondary to filling a critical gap in our defence at this juncture. However, the world post 2020 might take a completely different shape to whatever comes along soon, and who may operate it.....and what's more...if we had a JFH, still have a JHC, then we can have a jointly manned platform if we are to capitalise on our hard won expertise in both services...or is that too politically correct?
No of P8s required...
Five does seem an awfully small number, however if it is SAR cover that's requiiored, look at what the Kiwis do with 6 P3-Ks, based in Auckland. The NZ maritime AOR is (IIRC) 35% bigger that the North Atlantic - granted, less traffic, moreover their P3s ahve been progressively upgraded to give them a pretty impressive overland ISTAR capability.
Size isn't everything...
Size isn't everything...
Herald Scotland chosen to leak new MOD policy...
Has anyone thought to wonder why an obscure Jock journal suddenly has the scoop of the century on the planned buy of 5 x P-8? I know this is a rumour forum, but this is barking. Are we to believe everything we read in the press without question? I certainly don't buy the line that 'The MOD did not comment' - MOD would have told the journo the story was untrue, or provided some other weasel-wording if there was any truth in it. It would not be the first time that the 'did not comment' line was used because the provided comment did not suit the journo!
If you want to have a discussion about the relative merits of the P-8, crack on, but please don't give any more credence to the Herald ramblings. Apart from the fact that it is bolleaux, you will only raise false hopes amongst our Kipper fleet brethren.
If you want to have a discussion about the relative merits of the P-8, crack on, but please don't give any more credence to the Herald ramblings. Apart from the fact that it is bolleaux, you will only raise false hopes amongst our Kipper fleet brethren.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Fortissimo, it may have been published in the SH but it has been rumoured here before that.
Now digressing, on the SH webpage there is an advert for a BA Credit card. Did you clock the interest rate? 50.1% APR.
They have to be ****ing joking or they think the jocks are particularly gullible.
Now digressing, on the SH webpage there is an advert for a BA Credit card. Did you clock the interest rate? 50.1% APR.
They have to be ****ing joking or they think the jocks are particularly gullible.
Of course it will be Culdrose, that is where MFTS invested their efforts (money) on ac and infra. And as all WSOps/WSOs and Obs were destined to do their FT there it makes perfect sense!!!
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Whilst Culdrose would not be a terrible place to put them in terms of positioning, and I am certainly not against the idea of the RN running these alleged P8s we might get, there is the slight problem that Culdrose and Yeovilton are the fullest airbases in the UK.
5 P8 might be nothing to Waddington, but Culdrose?
I think not.
ps I'm loving the nimrod reverse victimisation from RN banter. very funny.
5 P8 might be nothing to Waddington, but Culdrose?
I think not.
ps I'm loving the nimrod reverse victimisation from RN banter. very funny.
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With the purchase of only three RC-135’s, and now talk of purchasing five P-8s, is it safe to assume that the UK will integrate these US military airframes into the inspection cycles conducted by US military maintenance teams? It doesn’t make sense for the UK to ramp up an 18 month (soon to be 24 month) inspection team for only three Rivet Joint airframes. The same can be said for five P-8s. What has become of UK sovereignty?
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There is no reason why major maintainance of all these aircraft couldnt be carried out by Waddington using contractors and RAF personnel . As for the
Boeing P-8 idea -how about detaching two north and two south with one machine as a trainer /spare etc. Somewhere like Leuchars and Culdrose spring to mind with small support crews.
Boeing P-8 idea -how about detaching two north and two south with one machine as a trainer /spare etc. Somewhere like Leuchars and Culdrose spring to mind with small support crews.
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Maintenance shouldnt be an issue, P8's are after all 737's so we could just farm the maintenance out to the BA facility at Cardiff. Waddington would seem the obvious location to collate all the ISTAR assets. Also with the promised demise of sentinel does the P8 not also carry a similar SAR.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Riley,
The P8 is rather faster than the Sea King therefore there is no need for dispersed flights. As already opined, Waddington is central and sensible as the P8 is yet another ISTR asset.
While the Nimrod was originally based at St Mawgan and Kinloss I suggest that was both for historic reasons (give CinChan his own air assets) and force numbers. Kinloss could not have handled 4 sqns plus the OCU.
Your north-south suggestion even in the 70s was invalid as we often flew SWApps Ops from Kinloss and loaned assets to SouMar to prosecute as far as Lajes.
Also, by the time the P8 could be introduced to Waddo it is likely that the Sentinel will be on its way out.
The P8 is rather faster than the Sea King therefore there is no need for dispersed flights. As already opined, Waddington is central and sensible as the P8 is yet another ISTR asset.
While the Nimrod was originally based at St Mawgan and Kinloss I suggest that was both for historic reasons (give CinChan his own air assets) and force numbers. Kinloss could not have handled 4 sqns plus the OCU.
Your north-south suggestion even in the 70s was invalid as we often flew SWApps Ops from Kinloss and loaned assets to SouMar to prosecute as far as Lajes.
Also, by the time the P8 could be introduced to Waddo it is likely that the Sentinel will be on its way out.
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Utter Cobblers
This report is utter cobblers, pure journalistic wishful speculation. With the SDSR savings target still 10s £billion adrift and savage cuts to come in PR12, including the delayed PR11 measures. it is more likely to be goodbye Challengers, Merlins and GR4s.
All wishful thinking. Despite the clear requirement for LRMPA and the desire of both light and dark blue to regain such a capability, there is NO MONEY. Indeed it is my personal view that much more will go in the next few years to pay off the arrears of the MOD's mortgage. The UK is broke and cannot afford any new capabilities. You only have to look at how perfectly good capabilities are being thrown on the scrapheap to save money to see that.
Type 22 gone
Sentinel to go in 2015
E3D downsizing
Type 42, last few hulls
CVF, possibly down to one hull
JCA.....will we ever see it? I doubt it!
Serious discussion about not having 4 SSBNs
Reduction in attack submarines
GR4 reductions
Harrier gone
Jaguar gone
Regiments amalgamated
Airfields closed
AS90s reduced
FRES?? etc etc etc
and many, many more enabling capabilities that make all the above work, all being burnt on the bonfire of Billions and Billions of debt. Don't kid yourselves that anything will get better before 2020 because there is no money, what is left is broken and people will soon be leaving in droves as the pressure of the Stan and Libya, means doing much much more with less.
The UK public is as deluded with the ability of the military to do whatever is bid by politicians, without the appropriate funding as it is with the state of the economy. In both cases, it will only be a strategic upset (god-forbid) that will change this attitude of both fingers in the ears and "la, la, la I'm not listening!"
Type 22 gone
Sentinel to go in 2015
E3D downsizing
Type 42, last few hulls
CVF, possibly down to one hull
JCA.....will we ever see it? I doubt it!
Serious discussion about not having 4 SSBNs
Reduction in attack submarines
GR4 reductions
Harrier gone
Jaguar gone
Regiments amalgamated
Airfields closed
AS90s reduced
FRES?? etc etc etc
and many, many more enabling capabilities that make all the above work, all being burnt on the bonfire of Billions and Billions of debt. Don't kid yourselves that anything will get better before 2020 because there is no money, what is left is broken and people will soon be leaving in droves as the pressure of the Stan and Libya, means doing much much more with less.
The UK public is as deluded with the ability of the military to do whatever is bid by politicians, without the appropriate funding as it is with the state of the economy. In both cases, it will only be a strategic upset (god-forbid) that will change this attitude of both fingers in the ears and "la, la, la I'm not listening!"
This report is utter cobblers, pure journalistic wishful speculation. With the SDSR savings target still 10s £billion adrift and savage cuts to come in PR12, including the delayed PR11 measures. it is more likely to be goodbye Challengers, Merlins and GR4s.
5 does seem an odd number, seeing as a year ago 9 was viewed as the absolute bare minimum needed for our new MPA...
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Widget..yes much has gone but you are being overly pessimistic about what the full implications are. Yes they will be severe but not a complete end to all days. At some point too the Government will have to give further consideration to shuffling cash between departmental budgets to make it work better too. Some capabilities will take priority over others whatever the additional cutbacks to come...one of those being the preservation of the deterrents' effectiveness...hence something will be done in due course to fill at least some of the gap left by the demise of MRA4...and yes ..no doubt the planners will be giving serious consideration as to what that will mean for extant capabilities too...including addressing some of the issues you talk off no doubt.
BTW....once upon a time Culdrose was the largest helo base in Europe but has not been for many a year since circa 120 ASW, SAR & AEW SKs & 30 Gazelles were replaced by circa 35 Merlins and about 25 remaining SKs. The Sea Prince and then Jetstream fleet has also evaporated to a few Avengers....so I don't think slipping a few additional fixed wing for LRMPA work will be too taxing...especially as CU is now the de facto home UK ASW capability....How the world turns eh?
BTW....once upon a time Culdrose was the largest helo base in Europe but has not been for many a year since circa 120 ASW, SAR & AEW SKs & 30 Gazelles were replaced by circa 35 Merlins and about 25 remaining SKs. The Sea Prince and then Jetstream fleet has also evaporated to a few Avengers....so I don't think slipping a few additional fixed wing for LRMPA work will be too taxing...especially as CU is now the de facto home UK ASW capability....How the world turns eh?
Last edited by Tallsar; 5th Jun 2011 at 21:02.
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One has to wonder how long the all ready paid for Nimrod MR4 fleet could have operated for on the budget to buy 5 of these things plus all the extra junk associated with the purchase........ one thinks quite a while.
Burton would be the ideal base for the MOD as it is the furthest point in the UK from any coastal area...... and of course as there is not a base there, further funds could be squandered in providing one......
Burton would be the ideal base for the MOD as it is the furthest point in the UK from any coastal area...... and of course as there is not a base there, further funds could be squandered in providing one......
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I have a letter from Liam Fox in which the following is written:
Ref: MRA4
The project had suffered from a history of delays and cost overruns but it was principally the aircrafts high future support costs that contributed to the decision not to bring it into service despite its advanced state. It was also a matter of serious concern to us that the single MRA4 aircraft that had been delivered to the MoD was unsafe and could not pass its flight tests. It would have taken more money and time to put it right if it was possible at all. It goes on to mention £3.9 billion down the drain 'balanced' by a £2 billion 'saving' over 10 years as a result of the axe.
In response to my comments to parliament regarding protecting whats left of the UK fishing fleet in the next Icelantic Cod War, he tried to impress me with tales about 3x River Class patrol boats being up to the task. There were no comments whatsoever that would suggest that policy involving expenditure was going to be considered before 2015 and probably nearer to 2020. He did however mention 6 MPA crew (No specific trades mentioned) working in Canada until April 2014 to sustain MPA/ISTAR skills.
At least I wrote to the MP instead of just bleating here!
Dont shoot the messenger
Ref: MRA4
The project had suffered from a history of delays and cost overruns but it was principally the aircrafts high future support costs that contributed to the decision not to bring it into service despite its advanced state. It was also a matter of serious concern to us that the single MRA4 aircraft that had been delivered to the MoD was unsafe and could not pass its flight tests. It would have taken more money and time to put it right if it was possible at all. It goes on to mention £3.9 billion down the drain 'balanced' by a £2 billion 'saving' over 10 years as a result of the axe.
In response to my comments to parliament regarding protecting whats left of the UK fishing fleet in the next Icelantic Cod War, he tried to impress me with tales about 3x River Class patrol boats being up to the task. There were no comments whatsoever that would suggest that policy involving expenditure was going to be considered before 2015 and probably nearer to 2020. He did however mention 6 MPA crew (No specific trades mentioned) working in Canada until April 2014 to sustain MPA/ISTAR skills.
At least I wrote to the MP instead of just bleating here!
Dont shoot the messenger