Typhoon Pilots 'unfit for flying' Sent Home
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
WW, indeed.
I was reflecting on "conduct unbecoming . . ." and thinking back to those I knew who had done the correct thing: at least two ACM, one AVM, two Air Cdre, but sqn ldrs of whom I knew 2-3 were pushed rather than biting the bullet.
Clearly what happens next is entirely dependent on one's future pension.
PS, and two ACM that didn't (3 maybe).
I was reflecting on "conduct unbecoming . . ." and thinking back to those I knew who had done the correct thing: at least two ACM, one AVM, two Air Cdre, but sqn ldrs of whom I knew 2-3 were pushed rather than biting the bullet.
Clearly what happens next is entirely dependent on one's future pension.
PS, and two ACM that didn't (3 maybe).
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Were these gentlemen due to fly next day?
If they were, I know of Air Forces where if they were on active service they'd have been shot. After due process of course.
If they were, ditto the above.
Were they due to attend work at all next day?
As I understand it, they were on active service. That's 'work', right?
Were they on stand-down/rest next day?
Ah, the Western concept of taking a break during active service. "Sorry, all this stuff for real on my MFD's has got too much for me, it's stressing me out and I'm having trouble sleeping. I need a few days on a beach somewhere. Or maybe some counselling." How quaint.
These are not facetious questions.
No, they're not facetious questions. They're very valid.
These guys were killing people - hopefully the right people - and destroying stuff - hopefully the stuff it was intended they destroy. Which is why it's almost unbelievable they reached the positions they did in the RAF. Presumably they had 'mates' who covered for them in the past. See where that attitude got them?
If they were, I know of Air Forces where if they were on active service they'd have been shot. After due process of course.
Were they on standby to fly next day?
If they were, ditto the above.
Were they due to attend work at all next day?
As I understand it, they were on active service. That's 'work', right?
Were they on stand-down/rest next day?
Ah, the Western concept of taking a break during active service. "Sorry, all this stuff for real on my MFD's has got too much for me, it's stressing me out and I'm having trouble sleeping. I need a few days on a beach somewhere. Or maybe some counselling." How quaint.
These are not facetious questions.
No, they're not facetious questions. They're very valid.
These guys were killing people - hopefully the right people - and destroying stuff - hopefully the stuff it was intended they destroy. Which is why it's almost unbelievable they reached the positions they did in the RAF. Presumably they had 'mates' who covered for them in the past. See where that attitude got them?
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Eeh, what a fuss. Interesting to see the divide in opinion between the "they were blowing off steam and we've all done it" through to the "they are officers and gentlemen and should know better"
As with most good arguments both sides have an element of truth but I suspect that what really holds the key to their predicament is that which has taxed warriors since man first took up sticks against man. They got caught. Endex.
As with most good arguments both sides have an element of truth but I suspect that what really holds the key to their predicament is that which has taxed warriors since man first took up sticks against man. They got caught. Endex.
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If a manager in almost any major industry were found drunk in the gutter he'd be tossed out out the company as a site safety risk. By "major industry" I mean real jobs like mining / engineering / chemicals / pharmaceuticals / electronics with safety-critical requirements.
There's more than a hint of schadenfreude about some of the comments in this thread.
Nevertheless, the hard word probably does need to go out about drinking to excess. Like many on here, I've seen some pretty poor examples set by senior officers when on deployed operations. Gulf War 1, in 'dry' Saudi Arabia, being a case in particular.
There was also an incident in Bahrain, when a crew was breathalysed by the military police when driving in to fly a mission during Op Southern Watch. The driver failed, so had to leave the car at the gate. Then they went flying......
Most of us like the odd sherbet, but FFS, there are times and places.
As for blanket bans being imposed on the otherwise innocent, who are capable of self-discipline, that's totally out of order.
Nevertheless, the hard word probably does need to go out about drinking to excess. Like many on here, I've seen some pretty poor examples set by senior officers when on deployed operations. Gulf War 1, in 'dry' Saudi Arabia, being a case in particular.
There was also an incident in Bahrain, when a crew was breathalysed by the military police when driving in to fly a mission during Op Southern Watch. The driver failed, so had to leave the car at the gate. Then they went flying......
Most of us like the odd sherbet, but FFS, there are times and places.
As for blanket bans being imposed on the otherwise innocent, who are capable of self-discipline, that's totally out of order.
Beagle
Unfortunately the reasoning behind it was probably along the lines of:-
"If officers cannot be trusted to act responsibly then obviously the other ranks, with their limited cognitive powers, cannot be trusted either."
After all the officers are the grown-ups and everyone else must be treated as a child right?
As for blanket bans being imposed on the otherwise innocent, who are capable of self-discipline, that's totally out of order.
"If officers cannot be trusted to act responsibly then obviously the other ranks, with their limited cognitive powers, cannot be trusted either."
After all the officers are the grown-ups and everyone else must be treated as a child right?
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I realise that the RAF hasn't got that much of a military ethos, but when I was in the Army, If 1 person screwed up, everyone else suffered as a consequence.
I believe the thinking behind it was to reduce the chances of screwing up, after all, it pays to be a winner.
I believe the thinking behind it was to reduce the chances of screwing up, after all, it pays to be a winner.
If a manager in almost any major industry were found drunk in the gutter he'd be tossed out out the company as a site safety risk. By "major industry" I mean real jobs like mining / engineering / chemicals / pharmaceuticals / electronics with safety-critical requirements
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If one person screws up deal with them and leave the good blokes out of it! This "one person fouls up punish everbody" approach implies an unwillingness to sort a problem out and spoil everone's life to be sure of catching the culprit. Pathetic in a 21st century organisation, military or otherwise
Last edited by A2QFI; 27th May 2011 at 20:21.
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Well, good for all you front end guys. Thread was about two crew that pushed the limit too far. I hope they get what was coming. As a past 'back end' crew, (ie cabin staff/ground crew), a lot of the previous posters have missed the point. Just about everyone has commented on the good/bad aspects of 'flight crew' getting themselves in this mess, (which, with a bit of honesty, would have ended in a bloody BIG bollocking), and no one has mentioned that there could be hundreds of passengers behind these guys depending on the usually, utmost pofessionialism of 99% of all you aircrew.
As an ex-crew chief I have been in a similar state and I even though I cannot justify it, ( I have submitted a near miss on my thoughts), I have had the benefit of going down the back and sleeping it off. I have had to rectify a kite with the mother of all hangovers and have got it sorted out but what if I had got my diagnosis wrong and what of the knock on effects?
I am not calling the kettle black but, as I have said, I had the additional benefit of sleeping it off and 99% of my crews were the perfect professionals. It is a shame that a few let the trade down.
As an ex-crew chief I have been in a similar state and I even though I cannot justify it, ( I have submitted a near miss on my thoughts), I have had the benefit of going down the back and sleeping it off. I have had to rectify a kite with the mother of all hangovers and have got it sorted out but what if I had got my diagnosis wrong and what of the knock on effects?
I am not calling the kettle black but, as I have said, I had the additional benefit of sleeping it off and 99% of my crews were the perfect professionals. It is a shame that a few let the trade down.
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If a manager in almost any major industry were found drunk in the gutter he'd be tossed out out the company as a site safety risk. By "major industry" I mean real jobs like mining / engineering / chemicals / pharmaceuticals / electronics with safety-critical requirements.
Truck - not sure you meant it this way (surely not?) but you appear to be saying you serviced aircraft whilst badly incapacitated by drink, then go on to offer
'It is a shame that a few let the trade down.
Outrage bus, all aboard, ding ding....
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Dave,
I admit it, as I said, I brought it up in Air Clues 'I learnt from servicing from that'. I do not try to avoid it and there is NO justification for being in that state. I told my captain and went down the back and slept it off.
In these days of two man crews does a crewmember have that same choise?
I have been down route and seen members of other crews/aircraft types in far worst states and have asked myself the question. I let myself down that trip but learnt from it and I hope that other GEs that I have trained have also learnt from that lesson
I just hope these guys do the same!
I admit it, as I said, I brought it up in Air Clues 'I learnt from servicing from that'. I do not try to avoid it and there is NO justification for being in that state. I told my captain and went down the back and slept it off.
In these days of two man crews does a crewmember have that same choise?
I have been down route and seen members of other crews/aircraft types in far worst states and have asked myself the question. I let myself down that trip but learnt from it and I hope that other GEs that I have trained have also learnt from that lesson
I just hope these guys do the same!
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Facts. They were not due to fly for over 24 hours. There was no dry or 2 can policy. There is just a lot of knee jerking. Press coverage is out of order esp as happened 6 weeks ago. Seems dodgy (?sp).
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The worst feature of this event is that the senior officers involved acted in such a way that that the misdemeanors were eventually made public. If they had performed their duty well the miscreants would have been sorted and 'the good working order and discipline' of the service would have remained intact.
Having said that, what a pair of plonkers!
Having said that, what a pair of plonkers!
All real fighter pilots have been there! We know it happens!
To those that have never been fighter pilots " Up yours"
To those that treasure the memories, I salute you!
The rest can go to
To those that have never been fighter pilots " Up yours"
To those that treasure the memories, I salute you!
The rest can go to
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Proof
Sorry
But this just proves what I have known for years that knuckleheads drink like girls, they do sit down to pee you know
Does this affect the 51 lads warm coccoa before bed
Seems I have missed my high horse that the most of you have found in the blunty stables of exercises and REMFs.
Charlie sends
from the tank!
But this just proves what I have known for years that knuckleheads drink like girls, they do sit down to pee you know
Does this affect the 51 lads warm coccoa before bed
Seems I have missed my high horse that the most of you have found in the blunty stables of exercises and REMFs.
Charlie sends
from the tank!