Operation Crossbow Sunday 15th May 2100

[aviate1138]

Whenurhappy
"Jones was a bit of a self-promotor and seen by the likes of Tizard and Cherwell as a bit precocious."

And Lord Cherwell was suited to judge?

"Lord Cherwell was by no means a pseudo-scientist
or a fool, but it's estimated that he may have prolonged the Second
World War by an entire year, simply because of his authoritarianism
and bad judgment".
from CP Snow

The article was from 1982, and apart from one Wikipedia entry, there
isn't all that much information on Cherwell in the Web. The entry does
give Cherwell some credit for his "innovative work on weapons", but on
the other hand, it also seems to confirm his obstinate character, his
questionable influence over Churchill, and also specifically notes
Cherwell's strange preference for carpet bombing as well as his
refusal to accept the evidence on the existence of the V-weapons.

[air pig]

According to R V Jones, Cherwell did not agree with the concept of radio propagation and the use of Knickebein X and Y Gerate with th former using a modified Lorenz blind bombing system. But, Cherwell did have T K Eckersley from Marconi backing him up in his agrument.

Cherwell, IIRC did not believe in the V2 either believing that a cordite/gunpowder rocket would not work. Arrogent in the extreme and believing the not invented here concept.

Regards

Air Pig

[Landroger]

Air Pig

Cherwell, IIRC did not believe in the V2 either believing that a cordite/gunpowder rocket would not work. Arrogent in the extreme and believing the not invented here concept.

I always understood Cherwell was the one who didn't think the liquid fueled rocket would work? Was he not quoted as saying something like;

"When the war is over and we can know the truth, the liquid fueled rocket will be found to have been a Mare's Nest."

He wasn't terribly impressed by Whittle's jet engine, either.

Roger.

[air pig]

Roger, I misquoted, Cherwell did not believe a rocket would not work unless it was cordite or gunpowder propelled. Yes indeed a serious case of thinking that if we can't do it no one else can. The German rocket prograame was known from before WW II. Jet engine development was as a multi national thing, not just in one country. The main problem being material technology not a failure of the concept

Regards

Air pig

[Whenurhappy]

Aviate - I am an accolyte of Jones and his competative nature was exactly what was needed at the time, instead of the self-effacing modesty and subservience that stifled progressive thought. Both Cherwell and Tizard (the latter changed his attitude towards Jones, it seems) were tired old men.

[aviate1138]

This country needs another RV Jones right now to bang the idiot Huhne and his cohort's heads together and stop the madness that is so called Global Warming, poisonous CO2 and stupid Wind Farms; however that is another thread!

[Rallye Driver]

Off at a bit of a tangent. But here are some pics of the filming for the programme at North Weald.

Jimmy Taylor with re-enactors


Two of the Medmenham analysts


Heli departs for A2A sequence


Take off


Fly by


Landing

[Warmtoast]

For an excellent overview of Operation Crossbow David Irving’s “The Mares Nest”, a best-seller when first published to great critical acclaim in 1965, is hard to beat.

The first edition had to have all references to Enigma and ULTRA removed, but it was later reissued with the previously excised Sigint references restored. I was startled by one particular fact that Irving quotes, that the V1, at only £125 each, was a cheap killer.

As one reviewer comments:

The V-1 and the V-2 were run as rival programmes, by the air force and the army respectively. Throughout, the V-2 was given the higher priority, though all the evidence showed that the V-1, in terms of cost-effectiveness, was by far the better weapon. Mr Irving produces some startling figures to prove this point. The flying-bomb offensive, from 12 June to 1 September 1944, cost the Allies £47,635,190 in loss of production, loss of aircraft and crews, extra AA and fighter defences, in an extra balloon barrage, in the clearance of bomb-sites and in the bombing counteroffensive; permanent repairs to houses damaged cost a further £25 million. As opposed to this, the manufacture of the flying bombs and the erection and defence of launching-sites cost a mere £12,600,670.

In terms of lives, the disproportion was even greater: 7,810 (including 1,950 trained airmen) on the Allied side, 185 on the German. The flying-bomb, at £125 each, was a cheap killer. By contrast, the V-2 cost £12,000 each to deliver a similar payload and with no significant improvement in accuracy. It absorbed a higher proportion of Germany’s scientific and skilled-engineering manpower than any other project, and the demands it placed on scarce supplies, particularly heavy chemicals, inflicted grave damage on the German war economy. Indeed, it might be argued that the V-2 did more harm to the German war effort than the entire Allied strategic bombing offensive.

Read a selection of reviews here:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/reviews/Mares_Nest.html

..and better still a free download (9 MB) from the publishers of the full 378-page 1985 edition which includes the previously deleted Sigint references can be downloaded here:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/MaresNest/index.html

[Melchett01]

Despite the various omissions, I thought it was rather good. If nothing else, it sheds a little light on to an often ignored, far less glamorous intelligence discipline than the typical 'spooks' and Bletchley crowd (not to do a disservice to either).

James Bond it's not, even deathly dull in some cases, but recce and imagery-intelligence is a vital part of successful ops, back then and today, just nice to see it get a look in for once.

[Whenurhappy]

Its a pity that this book is so tainted by David Irving's reputation and subsequent court conviction as a pro NAZI & one who has denied that the holocaust occured.

[jindabyne]

BBC NEWS | UK | Profile: David Irving

Agree ----- if, of course, it's one and the same