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ATPL exams now or post Apr 12?

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ATPL exams now or post Apr 12?

Old 7th May 2011, 08:45
  #1 (permalink)  
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ATPL exams now or post Apr 12?

Ok, my dilemma is this. I can't fit in or afford to complete the 14 exams AND the flying skill test and IRT by Apr 12.
I have ELCs so I'm after advice on whether I should start the exams now so I can 'dip' into 1 yrs ELCS this year and use the further 2 'dips' once they sort out the system post Apr 12 for the flying part (I hope the rumour that there's a team at 22GP working on this is true!) I have over 2000 hrs total but only 500 capt's hrs on C17.
My worry is that I sit a load of exams this year, spending lots of time and money, only to find that they are not valid under the new system come next year.
So in short, do I sit the exams this year or call the whole thing off until the system sorts itself out some time in 2012, fingers crossed?
Any advice or news on the 22GP teams efforts would be greatly appreciated.
BobbyT is offline  
Old 7th May 2011, 09:24
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There are sylabus changes. Contact Bristol GS - I spoke to them about this 2 months ago, unfortunately AESA could not confirm any sylabus.THeir best guess at the time was the sylabus change would be minimal.

I, like you will be waiting for post April 2012, however, now run the risk of having to also do the skills test and the CRM course despite having over 2000 heavy jet hours and a CAA CRMI tick. Mental.

I hope group realise that by not staffing the Exemptions, they have just turned a retention system into one where every man and his dog is going out and getting their tickets. Whereas people used to stick around till their 1000 hours point (captain) I now see 60-80% of first tourist copilots getting their lincenses in. The net result? Well, once the industry picks up (which it is), as well as overseas military transfers (UAE, India,Qatar) we are going to see a head for the exits pretty darned quick.
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Old 7th May 2011, 11:07
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VinRouge - exactly. The whole Military Accreditation scheme was intended to be a recruiting and retention incentive.

Article 9 of the post-comitology version of part-FCL (still to be debated by the European Parliament who, it is clear, do not hold EASA in particularly high regard) states:

The knowledge, experience and skill gained in military service shall be given credit for the relevant requirements of Annex 1 in accordance with the elements of a credit report established by the Member State in consultation with the Agency.

'Shall' is a mandatory requirement. In other words, the UK will be required under EU law to facilitate this accreditation. The 'credit report' is the item which 22Gp and the CAA must agree upon; it is vital that this report is generous as, if it isn't, the accreditation won't be worth people staying around for.

Historically the RAF has been far too conservative with regard to military knowledge, experience and skill accreditation, so it behoves 22Gp to buck that trend if they expect anyone to stick around.....
BEagle is online now  
Old 7th May 2011, 12:01
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What are the standing agreements in other soon-to-be EASA countries? Aren't there some countries which issue an ATPL to their pilots early on in their careers as they have to fly in controlled "civilian" airspace as part of our jobs anyway? If we have a joint rule for all countries, how is that going to work? I think Dutch, Danish, Spanish and French pilots all have MUCH simpler and cheaper routes to a civilian career than we do in the UK. If the path change becomes harder for us in the UK, and our european brethren have to abide by the same changes, they are going to have a fit.

Could this actually be a change for the better for an RAF pilot, with easier transitions for us all?

Even so, I'm ploughing through Bristol Ground School at the moment!
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Old 7th May 2011, 12:09
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Other Member States have varying levels of training (theoretical and flying) for their military pilots. Some issue military pilot licences, others do not. Hence EASA part-FCL states that application for accreditation will have to be made to the Member State in which military training took place.

Of all the present CAA requirements, the one to me which seems totally illogical is the requirement for some CAA IRE to 'view' an IR. Which is daft; the military IR privileges (as far as non-limited Green IRs are concerned) are identical to civil IR privileges and should be accepted without any further requirements.
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Old 9th May 2011, 07:19
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Thanks for replies, but, still not sure whether to start the whole exam process now or later. Its a shame that after over 10 years military flying all over the world I need to sit 14 exams to prove I can fly safely in the airways!
BobbyT is offline  
Old 9th May 2011, 08:44
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I hope that someone makes that point to Dead Dog's team who I gather (I may be wrong) are looking at this issue?
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Old 9th May 2011, 17:21
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BobbyT, are you sure that you need to do all 14 exams? If you have been flying 10 years you must be eligible for some exemptions. If so get cracking, the door is closing fairly soon. The ever helpful guys (girls) at Bristol should be able to see you in the right direction. They put me on the right track. 2000 inc 500 Capt sounds like a healthy chunk of military bridging package.
rathebelucky is offline  
Old 10th May 2011, 17:54
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Bridging Package

Assuming no snags en route, what's a typical time scale to get the bridging package (including IRT) done? (ie If a chap has not started by x date then he won't be finished by Apr 12.)

Also, does anyone have any gen from 22 Gp on their progress (or lack of!)?
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Old 10th May 2011, 19:19
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Dont know but it might be worth an email.
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Old 10th May 2011, 20:23
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Rathebelucky, you'd like to think so but the clincher is 1000 pilot in command. Without that there is no short cut, you have to do all the exams, if you've got 1000+ Capt hrs all you have to do is 1 Air Law exam and the IRT and skill test. It'd take me 18 mths to 2 yrs to get the extra 500 I need so not going to happen by Apr 12 I'm afraid.
The other major player is the fact it costs around 10k all in if you take accom etc in to account. I'd prefer 3 2k dips in to ELCs plus the rest contributed by myself rather than spend 10k this year that I don't have, family commitments etc.
I think a lot of people would like to know where the 22GP team are so we can make educated decisions, but I've heard nothing up to now.
Does anyone have any info on who is on the said 22GP Team?
Cheers all.
BobbyT is offline  
Old 11th May 2011, 14:45
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The bridging scheme is acceptable to EASA (ish), the problem isn't about abolishing it by 2012 or reducing it to a shortened less advantageous version; it's about workload.

EASA have told the CAA they 'can' retain some sort of bridging scheme for mil pilots provided they produce a suitable business case to support it. The CAA have told the EU they don't have the staff, nor the time to fit this relatively unimportant task ..in. You will lose all your exemptions for this reason alone and no amount of lobbying by 22Gp team or anyone else will speed this process up. WHO is going to staff it? The CAA domain is tiny.
Thomas coupling is offline  
Old 11th May 2011, 15:43
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Actually, according to the CAA, they told the MoD that they didn't have the staff... The EC wouldn't give a monkey's.

However, it will be an obligation under EU law for the 'Member State' to come up with the conversion report, so that's what 22Gp need to sort - WITHOUT being overly cautious or niggardly.
BEagle is online now  
Old 12th May 2011, 06:54
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and relax..... It's in hand. There was a briefing note from DFT released yesterday.

part of it copied below.

It is our intent that the replacement for the QSP will fully acknowledge the skills, training and experience gained by military aircrew. Furthermore it will be presented in a format that is easily understood and amended. The new scheme will have a future proofing management system to allow ease of amendment as regulations and our own training systems evolve.
High_Expect is offline  
Old 8th Jun 2011, 17:18
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I am thinking about doing my ATPL(H) fairly soon, does anyone know anything more about possible changes in April 2012? Not sure if I should wait to see if the changes are for the better or get the exams out of the way now.....

Anyone, Beuller, Beuller......
wokkamate is offline  
Old 3rd Oct 2011, 15:28
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Anyone know the details of the aeronautical information circular W73/2011? If so can you help, or tell me how I can get hold of a copy please?

It has the answer to the predicament that if I were to finish my groundschool exams but not the rest of the ATPL course before 1st April, what happens to my exam passes? Do I get credit for them? Is the flying phase likely to be longer? CAA website just points me in the direction of the AIC, but doesn't host the doc on its site. A search on PPRuNe didn't help either.

Big worry is that I am not going to have the time to finish the second set of 7 exams and get my flying in by April (I can't get the leave anyway ;-).

I assume 22 Gp are going to release some random surprise on the 31st March.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
gashman is offline  
Old 3rd Oct 2011, 16:00
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There's also the FW(Non-ME) scheme which may apply depending on your background....only 4 exams there, i believe.
Uncle Ginsters is offline  
Old 3rd Oct 2011, 17:14
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AIC's form part of the UK AIP, all available here NATS | AIS
rata2e is offline  
Old 3rd Oct 2011, 20:38
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Because it is the end of the Military Bridging as we know it...

"The current scheme provides for JAR-FCL licences to be granted on the basis of credit for military flying. The last day upon which the CAA will be able to grant a new JAR-FCL licence on the basis of military flying, including any of the partial credits currently available, will be 7th April 2012. The new scheme must be in place before a Part-FCL (EASA) licence may be granted on the basis of credit for military flying."
Foxee is offline  
Old 4th Oct 2011, 10:10
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It is about 7 years now since I went through military bridging, but here are some thoughts anyway...

My understanding is that many of our european friends changed their military flying training syllabuses to make them JAR compliant. I know the French equivalent of DHFS at Toulouse did. Therefore military bridging isn't really an issue for them at the moment, and I suspect that they will just tweak them to make them EUOps compliant.

In terms of costs for accommodation, bear in mind that if you can use resettlement for the training you should get service accommodation as you are on duty. I did my CPL/IR at Exeter and stayed in the Wardroom Mess at RM Lympstone, which kept my boss happy too as it didn't hit his T&S budget. Only snag was having to put on a jacket and tie for breakfast, but they were very welcoming to that strange crab over there...

When the JAR military bridging was worked out, the RAF staffed the fixed-wing part, and the RN staffed the rotary-wing part. One snag with this was that RN RW IRs were non-procedural, so they didn't even try to get recognition for a RW IR. However, I believe that an RAF RW IR should be fully compliant with a JAR one (with, perhaps, the exception of the Puma due to lack of an ADF). Indeed, I recall meeting one of Westland's TPs doing his IRT in a Merlin sim at Benson with a CAA examiner watching.

I don't know how it is being worked out this time, but it may be worth asking questions. RW IRs don't come cheap.

My experience was that Bristol Groundschool were very good at driving the CAA and getting them to accept 'interim' arrangements. They would be a good starting point.
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