Bin Laden Dead
The Obama White House operates by "Leaks, leaking, and issuing contradictory statemements"....so why is this event any different?
Indeed the cockroaches are scurrying about with the new light shined on them....and AQ too.
Indeed the cockroaches are scurrying about with the new light shined on them....and AQ too.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Like all recent adminstrations, the trouble is the chief spin doctor is sat at the President's elbow telling him that a vacuum can't exist in the 24 hour cable news void, so fill it with something, just anything. Every action is subject to the following scrutiny:
1. How many points will I score in the opinion polls?
2. Can I make the other team look bad?
3. Will it come back to bite me?
4. How does this help my voters?
5. How does this help my country?
Point 5 is positively the last thing considered by any sitting President, regardless of party affiliation, because if you don't get voted back in, you can't be President. Sad but true, not much different back in Blighty these days I'm guessing.
1. How many points will I score in the opinion polls?
2. Can I make the other team look bad?
3. Will it come back to bite me?
4. How does this help my voters?
5. How does this help my country?
Point 5 is positively the last thing considered by any sitting President, regardless of party affiliation, because if you don't get voted back in, you can't be President. Sad but true, not much different back in Blighty these days I'm guessing.
because if you don't get voted back in, you can't be President. Sad but true, not much different back in Blighty these days I'm guessing.
Last edited by AR1; 4th May 2011 at 18:51. Reason: Grammar correction.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,094
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm guessing of course but I think the SEALS may have had instructions to kill OBL. Much as the prospect of seeing him executed at Ground Zero appeals, we have all learned that a high profile prisoner isn't always good news.
In the case of OBL I fear that, had he been taken alive, within a week there would have a hundred hostages being held and within two weeks one hundred televised beheadings.
Judging by the amount of intelligence that was seized at the time it isn't surprising that the raid took forty minutes to complete.
In the case of OBL I fear that, had he been taken alive, within a week there would have a hundred hostages being held and within two weeks one hundred televised beheadings.
Judging by the amount of intelligence that was seized at the time it isn't surprising that the raid took forty minutes to complete.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: north-south of nowhere
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
guys its not about personal opinion. i can completely understand why wont believe a number as high as that.
but
the 7000 figure includes 6 of coursemates and quite alot of my friends. so you'll just have to take my word for it. no proof sorry. the pak army will never reveal its actual losses. we took heavier losses in the operating at wanna and the north areas. frankly i dont mind if you believe me, but i been to enough funerals to know.
you know, these guys the pak army is fight. they have been fighting a war since the soviet invasion. they might not have the equipment, but they more than make up for it in terms of experience and knowledge of the area and any infantryman will tell you, that makes quite a big impact on how things trun out on the ground.
here is an example on how good they are. single sniper. took 2 shots fired at the presidents motorcade which was traveling at over 100 mph. armored cars. the spread between the 2 impacts was less than 2 inch. he got caught so we know it was a single shooter, distance was just over 500 yards. this is the caliber of guys the army has been fighting. they started firing guns as soon as they started walking. shooting comes naturally to them. and therefore the high casualties.
Ghazi is no secret. that is where the US started to operate from during the flood relief. they just never left. the government will never admit to it.
unlike what both the pakistan and the US governments would like you to believe, we have had US boots on the ground for a long time. advisors during raids as well as doing BDA on the ground. they have been flying in pakistan since the beginning with an army aviation officer on board for all the radio work to keep it hush hush.
GCI cant pick up low level targets yes, but the Erieye can. we are actually operating 2 different AEW&C systems. also VERA-E, even though feedback from sector commands is bad about the VERA-E, but its still there and operational. i wont comment on what kind of look down shoot down capability PAF has, but we have it and on multiple platforms not just F-16s. but i will tell u that if its to intercept a US fighter, PAF will never use F-16s, it'll be either mirages, the F-7s or the JF-17s. the F-16s have this fail safe system, they wont lock on US aircrafts. the guys in the squadrons tried, it wouldn't.
PMA is a no fly zone. no one goes in or out without express permission from army ADA, otherwise you get shot. a poor guy flying a lonely Cessna152 ended up near PMA after getting lost and losing radio contact. knew though they knew where th plane came from, still the poor guy was chased away with live warning shots and a gunship escort. problem is the exact thing some here have pointed out. PMA is only 80 miles from indian controlled kashmir. low level choppers can sneak in. therefore the order to open fire if unknown and no contact.
ok forget all that. say i am making everything up for arguments sake.
we all agree on 1 thing...PMA is a secure facility. they have their own ADA unit assign to them, plus 2 regiments for defense. right, this is on record so no argument there
now, even if the choppers were flying low. even if army only heard the choppers after their arrival....
what stopped them ADA from opening fire? stingers are very effective on hovering targets u know.
why didnt the sentry guards who patrol around PMA shoot, after all, the choppers were only 500 meters form PMAs boundary.
even to get to that compound, they had to fly over army units based at and around abbotabad. why didnt they react?
forget them...any reason why the police didnt react. the US themselves say they were on the ground for 40 mins. 40 minutes of 3 or 4 helicopters flying less than 500 meters from PMA in the middle of an army cantonment and no one does anything? really? does that make sense?
how long you think an sentry would take to run 500 meters and open fire? even if you cut of both legs off, i think he should atleast get to say 50 meter from the compound in 40 minutes?
unless of course they were expecting the choppers and had orders not to react..
ok fine...say the reaction time of the PAF is pathetic. highly unlikely since i have personally seen their scrambles, plus india is next door. you really think it will take more than 40 minutes for a fighter on QRA to get airborne and reach the choppers who are less than 5 minutes flight from the runway?
one more thing, since i have lived in that area.
i know for a fact most civilians carry guns in that entire region, the province is the gun capital of the world u know ( look for darra adam khail , or pakistan gun market on youtube, you'll get an idea).
coming to the point. every other guy carries a gun and no one fired a single shot? or maybe they did and thats what brought the chopper down.
40 minutes flying over the city and a crowd didnt gather?? no matter what you do to a chopper, besides installing antigravity drives, they will make a ton of noise and wake people up.
come on
now knowing all that. knowing that army didnt shoot, PAF didnt scramble and the crowd couldnt gather during the 40 minute long op. how can anyone say the pak military didnt know?
oh and another thing, its only been a couple of days and the US is already starting to change stories. what does that tell you?
but
the 7000 figure includes 6 of coursemates and quite alot of my friends. so you'll just have to take my word for it. no proof sorry. the pak army will never reveal its actual losses. we took heavier losses in the operating at wanna and the north areas. frankly i dont mind if you believe me, but i been to enough funerals to know.
you know, these guys the pak army is fight. they have been fighting a war since the soviet invasion. they might not have the equipment, but they more than make up for it in terms of experience and knowledge of the area and any infantryman will tell you, that makes quite a big impact on how things trun out on the ground.
here is an example on how good they are. single sniper. took 2 shots fired at the presidents motorcade which was traveling at over 100 mph. armored cars. the spread between the 2 impacts was less than 2 inch. he got caught so we know it was a single shooter, distance was just over 500 yards. this is the caliber of guys the army has been fighting. they started firing guns as soon as they started walking. shooting comes naturally to them. and therefore the high casualties.
Ghazi is no secret. that is where the US started to operate from during the flood relief. they just never left. the government will never admit to it.
unlike what both the pakistan and the US governments would like you to believe, we have had US boots on the ground for a long time. advisors during raids as well as doing BDA on the ground. they have been flying in pakistan since the beginning with an army aviation officer on board for all the radio work to keep it hush hush.
GCI cant pick up low level targets yes, but the Erieye can. we are actually operating 2 different AEW&C systems. also VERA-E, even though feedback from sector commands is bad about the VERA-E, but its still there and operational. i wont comment on what kind of look down shoot down capability PAF has, but we have it and on multiple platforms not just F-16s. but i will tell u that if its to intercept a US fighter, PAF will never use F-16s, it'll be either mirages, the F-7s or the JF-17s. the F-16s have this fail safe system, they wont lock on US aircrafts. the guys in the squadrons tried, it wouldn't.
PMA is a no fly zone. no one goes in or out without express permission from army ADA, otherwise you get shot. a poor guy flying a lonely Cessna152 ended up near PMA after getting lost and losing radio contact. knew though they knew where th plane came from, still the poor guy was chased away with live warning shots and a gunship escort. problem is the exact thing some here have pointed out. PMA is only 80 miles from indian controlled kashmir. low level choppers can sneak in. therefore the order to open fire if unknown and no contact.
ok forget all that. say i am making everything up for arguments sake.
we all agree on 1 thing...PMA is a secure facility. they have their own ADA unit assign to them, plus 2 regiments for defense. right, this is on record so no argument there
now, even if the choppers were flying low. even if army only heard the choppers after their arrival....
what stopped them ADA from opening fire? stingers are very effective on hovering targets u know.
why didnt the sentry guards who patrol around PMA shoot, after all, the choppers were only 500 meters form PMAs boundary.
even to get to that compound, they had to fly over army units based at and around abbotabad. why didnt they react?
forget them...any reason why the police didnt react. the US themselves say they were on the ground for 40 mins. 40 minutes of 3 or 4 helicopters flying less than 500 meters from PMA in the middle of an army cantonment and no one does anything? really? does that make sense?
how long you think an sentry would take to run 500 meters and open fire? even if you cut of both legs off, i think he should atleast get to say 50 meter from the compound in 40 minutes?
unless of course they were expecting the choppers and had orders not to react..
ok fine...say the reaction time of the PAF is pathetic. highly unlikely since i have personally seen their scrambles, plus india is next door. you really think it will take more than 40 minutes for a fighter on QRA to get airborne and reach the choppers who are less than 5 minutes flight from the runway?
one more thing, since i have lived in that area.
i know for a fact most civilians carry guns in that entire region, the province is the gun capital of the world u know ( look for darra adam khail , or pakistan gun market on youtube, you'll get an idea).
coming to the point. every other guy carries a gun and no one fired a single shot? or maybe they did and thats what brought the chopper down.
40 minutes flying over the city and a crowd didnt gather?? no matter what you do to a chopper, besides installing antigravity drives, they will make a ton of noise and wake people up.
come on
now knowing all that. knowing that army didnt shoot, PAF didnt scramble and the crowd couldnt gather during the 40 minute long op. how can anyone say the pak military didnt know?
oh and another thing, its only been a couple of days and the US is already starting to change stories. what does that tell you?
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Posts: 735
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
oh and another thing, its only been a couple of days and the US is already starting to change stories. what does that tell you?
Fact: OBL is dead
How: Irrelevant
Hard to believe in 6 years people whose behavior was termed strange and as per televised interviews of the neighbors some one who has assumed "black money from white powder" lived there, in 6 years never even merited a visit by the local beat constable to look into this.
If the above is the case it is well within the reasoning of what Panetta said. The forces were plain incompetent and 6 years of no interference had resulted in all including the forces to keep their defenses down. Now when you have been caught napping, treat it as a bad dream and move on
Bin Liner was a Goner from the gitgo....take a minute to think just how many folks around the World would not want him to talk freely about his connections, supporters, and financiers! That one fact alone condemned the Man to a very quick departure from this life. Just how many Saudi Princes, Emirs, Mullahs, Bankers, Politicians, et al....are now breathing much easier. At least until the treasure trove of intelligence keepsakes are analyzed and disseminated to other SpecOps units for use in their Ops.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: UK/Philippines/Italy
Age: 73
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
here is an example on how good they are. single sniper. took 2 shots fired at the presidents motorcade which was traveling at over 100 mph. armored cars. the spread between the 2 impacts was less than 2 inch. he got caught so we know it was a single shooter, distance was just over 500 yards. this is the caliber of guys the army has been fighting. they started firing guns as soon as they started walking. shooting comes naturally to them. and therefore the high casualties.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
" here is an example on how good they are. single sniper. took 2 shots fired at the presidents motorcade which was traveling at over 100 mph. armored cars. the spread between the 2 impacts was less than 2 inch. he got caught so we know it was a single shooter, distance was just over 500 yards. this is the caliber of guys the army has been fighting. they started firing guns as soon as they started walking. shooting comes naturally to them. and therefore the high casualties."
Bit of a raised eyebrow here."
A good shooter knowing what lead to put on using the sustained lead method would do this. No difference to shooting animals running flat out.
It's just a judgement call. However I will say that 2" is good.
On the other hand, he might have been a good shot but he got caught so he wasn't that good was he. Alos, what was he doing shooting at armored cars with a rifle or was it a 50 cal using AP bullets ? Even then, not the best tool for the job.
.
Bit of a raised eyebrow here.
"A good shooter knowing what lead to put on using the sustained lead method would do this. No difference to shooting animals running flat out.
It's just a judgement call. However I will say that 2" is good.
On the other hand, he might have been a good shot but he got caught so he wasn't that good was he. Alos, what was he doing shooting at armored cars with a rifle or was it a 50 cal using AP bullets ? Even then, not the best tool for the job.
.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: north-south of nowhere
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i guess they were trying to make a point. that they can hit the presidents car in the capital while under escort and traveling at high speed
it was in the news. you should be able to find photos of it on the internet.
it was in the news. you should be able to find photos of it on the internet.
Thanks for your explanation, denlop. I find myself in some agreement with the first line in Wannabe Flyer's response. 
We can't be too careful ...
We can't be too careful ...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
denlop
"i guess they were trying to make a point. that they can hit the presidents car in the capital while under escort and traveling at high speed
it was in the news. you should be able to find photos of it on the internet."
We know really good snipers come along once in a while so they are few and far between.
" trying to make a point" at the cost of what you say is a top quality person is IMHO, not a good use of assets.
Anyway, this is thread drift.
"i guess they were trying to make a point. that they can hit the presidents car in the capital while under escort and traveling at high speed
it was in the news. you should be able to find photos of it on the internet."
We know really good snipers come along once in a while so they are few and far between.
" trying to make a point" at the cost of what you say is a top quality person is IMHO, not a good use of assets.
Anyway, this is thread drift.
denlopviper,
I wouldn't put too much credence in the White House story changes to back up conspiracy theories.
The WH has screwed up the story and account royally, but has been overlooked due to the significance of what happened. The best explanation I've seen was a US TV networks Pentagon correspondents observation that unlike past practice with military operations where well versed, well trained and experienced military officers handled the briefings, the Obama Administration had their civilian White House staff handle the briefings and basically didn't have a clue what they were talking about unless they could pull up a Wikipedia reference on their iphones. When all the information keep coming across their desks, they just regurgitated it without any filters unlike a smart military officer who could clear up the chaos for a consistent, easy to understand account of an operation.
I wouldn't put too much credence in the White House story changes to back up conspiracy theories.
The WH has screwed up the story and account royally, but has been overlooked due to the significance of what happened. The best explanation I've seen was a US TV networks Pentagon correspondents observation that unlike past practice with military operations where well versed, well trained and experienced military officers handled the briefings, the Obama Administration had their civilian White House staff handle the briefings and basically didn't have a clue what they were talking about unless they could pull up a Wikipedia reference on their iphones. When all the information keep coming across their desks, they just regurgitated it without any filters unlike a smart military officer who could clear up the chaos for a consistent, easy to understand account of an operation.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Whyte House
Age: 95
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Probably been said before (too many pages of posts), but the timing of the take-down leads me to suspect they were the opening shots in BHO's election campaign.
And of course a few days later he makes his first visit, 2 1/2 years after being elected, to ground zero.
Cynical? Me? How very dare you.
And of course a few days later he makes his first visit, 2 1/2 years after being elected, to ground zero.
Cynical? Me? How very dare you.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I get the impression that someone seems to think the way in which OBL was taken out may be of dubious legality. Who cares, well, other than Amnesty and a load of other guardian reading types, not that many.
Wonder whats going to happen if it emerges that OBL was shot in the back of the head for example? I for one cant understand why they just dont release the juicy pics and be done with it!
The guy had it coming. If he was executed, all the better. But the likes of Rowan Williams should bear in mind the families of those killed on 7/7 as well as 9/11 before commenting on whether OBL should have been killed.
Wonder whats going to happen if it emerges that OBL was shot in the back of the head for example? I for one cant understand why they just dont release the juicy pics and be done with it!
The guy had it coming. If he was executed, all the better. But the likes of Rowan Williams should bear in mind the families of those killed on 7/7 as well as 9/11 before commenting on whether OBL should have been killed.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I get the impression that someone seems to think the way in which OBL was taken out may be of dubious legality. Who cares, well, other than Amnesty and a load of other guardian reading types, not that many. "
Due process.
Moral high ground.
Summary execution.
Due process.
Moral high ground.
Summary execution.