British Future MPA
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And of course the money to pay for this 'lease' + training + servicing + weapons + spares + ground equipment + pfa tools + rigs + etc etc is all coming out of the pay packet of the fu*kwit who cancelled, scrapped and completely disposed of the MR2/MRA4s and anything else to do with Maritime FW aviation isn't it?
I thought not. Even if it goes ahead, I'm fairly certain our cousins will get priority, then India, then us, so it will be 2016 at the earliest; my guess, there will be little or no maritime fw air experience left by then.
Good Luck.
I thought not. Even if it goes ahead, I'm fairly certain our cousins will get priority, then India, then us, so it will be 2016 at the earliest; my guess, there will be little or no maritime fw air experience left by then.
Good Luck.
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Okay,
this has gone on for 12 pages, and that's quite enough - Keesje, I'll leave it to you to start the new thread on 'Space Ops post Shuttle', which subject hasn't had so much as a Microsoft Paint doodle so far, and is (surely) worthy of discussion? We've had reuseable boosters, non-reuseable boosters, I look forward to discovering the third way.
MFC, that made me chuckle
this has gone on for 12 pages, and that's quite enough - Keesje, I'll leave it to you to start the new thread on 'Space Ops post Shuttle', which subject hasn't had so much as a Microsoft Paint doodle so far, and is (surely) worthy of discussion? We've had reuseable boosters, non-reuseable boosters, I look forward to discovering the third way.
MFC, that made me chuckle
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AO ISTAR briefed in recent days that it will be 5 x P8 on lease
Shuttle Ops :-)
Here's one of the many post shuttle options but it's one that appeals to me:
Reaction Engines Ltd : Space Propulsion Systems
The discussion on the Nasa spaceflight forum might interest some:
Skylon
It's interesting to see people's reactions to an idea. In my work I often have to explain why things work the way they do to people but the tradeoffs can suddenly change on you very quickly.
Reaction Engines Ltd : Space Propulsion Systems
The discussion on the Nasa spaceflight forum might interest some:
Skylon
It's interesting to see people's reactions to an idea. In my work I often have to explain why things work the way they do to people but the tradeoffs can suddenly change on you very quickly.
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Microsoft Paint doodle so far,
Those that know about MPA ops are the same people that are saying what the requirements really are
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.co...P-99MPA_lg.jpg
Hopefull the UK caught up.
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No no no no no!
The MPA startegy worked, what didn't work was the process by which replacement aircraft were procured, and this is a problem that could hit ANY branch of the forces with the same anihilating effect... and arguably already has done, when you look at how many SSN, DDG and FFG the RN is going to have for the forseeable future, how many fighter/fighter-bomber aircraft the RAF will have, and the number of regiments there will be in the full time army.
At least TRY to learn to identify the real issue.
I'm amazed how many still support an MPA strategy that so catastrophically hit the wall.
At least TRY to learn to identify the real issue.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Defense News: Germany to Press Maritime Patrol Aircraft Pool
BRUSSELS - Germany is looking to make progress on a maritime patrol aircraft pool, a European Union multinational joint headquarters (JHQ) and other high-priority military ideas at a workshop it is hosting in September and October.
At first sight, the maritime patrol aircraft pool looks to have more potential, as the JHQ has been opposed by the U.K. and requires all 26 EU member states taking part in the EU's defense policy to agree for it to proceed.
"Using the European Air Transport Command as a template, a management structure for the coordination of maritime patrol resources and capabilities could be established, bringing together partial, fragmented national capabilities into a European pool," a German Ministry of Defence official said.
The aim of the workshop is to gain thorough information on member states' interest. "Nations who have declared their intention to participate in this initiative will also have to discuss the topic of sharing the use of maritime patrol aircraft in real-world operations," the official said..........
BRUSSELS - Germany is looking to make progress on a maritime patrol aircraft pool, a European Union multinational joint headquarters (JHQ) and other high-priority military ideas at a workshop it is hosting in September and October.
At first sight, the maritime patrol aircraft pool looks to have more potential, as the JHQ has been opposed by the U.K. and requires all 26 EU member states taking part in the EU's defense policy to agree for it to proceed.
"Using the European Air Transport Command as a template, a management structure for the coordination of maritime patrol resources and capabilities could be established, bringing together partial, fragmented national capabilities into a European pool," a German Ministry of Defence official said.
The aim of the workshop is to gain thorough information on member states' interest. "Nations who have declared their intention to participate in this initiative will also have to discuss the topic of sharing the use of maritime patrol aircraft in real-world operations," the official said..........
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A NATO/European MPA force...before anybody else claims that one for the modern generation, I wrote a paper on it circa mid 80s.
Pretty sure (as in absolutely ******** certain) many people had had the idea before me.
As with most (all) of my ideas, I was told to stop being a knob. Ho hum....the trials and tribulations of being years ahead of your time.
Give it up mate...his morse key has been locked to transmit.
Pretty sure (as in absolutely ******** certain) many people had had the idea before me.
As with most (all) of my ideas, I was told to stop being a knob. Ho hum....the trials and tribulations of being years ahead of your time.
At least TRY to learn to identify the real issue.
I'm amazed how many still support an MPA strategy that so catastrophically hit the wall.
As has been pointed out numerous times, the MPA strategy did not "hit the wall". Our Govt, as did yours, decided for different reasons to give up LONG range maritime patrol aircraft. The requirement for a LONG range MPA still exists in the UK. It exists in the USA and they are procuring the P8, the Russians still operate the Bear F; even the Chinese and Indian militaries have recognised the requirement for LRMPA and the Indians have 16 P8s on order. So according to you all of these countries have got it wrong.
The plastic toys you suggest may be able to do the long bit (in the case of Global Hawk), they might even be able to open water ASuW with nice radars, but most of your suggestions are littoral at best. With GH (designed for high altitude ops) just how do you suggest that it will be capable of carrying sufficient, suitable ASW sensors? With how much of a redesign? And at what cost? Where will the ASW weapons be fitted and at what cost/impact upon performance? Your Emb 145 looks lovely, on paper; however, as the UK has discovered with ASTOR/Sentinel, sticking a large fairing on a small biz-jet comes with its own, significant, expensive problems.
If you want coastal patrol aircraft there are lots out there that fit the bill already, but for deep water ASW, well there are the P8 and the world's ugliest aircraft (the Japanese purpose designed P1). I for one am a sceptic on the capabilities of the P8 (when it first enters service). After that you are into second hand aircraft modified for the role. As many on here have pointed out there are no UAVs that can do the task, there are unlikely to be any UAVs in the forseeable future that can do the ASW task and UAVs aren't cheap - not when you add in all of the C2 required to control them.
As someone who has specialised in both LRMP and AAR (not at the same time), your design might be able to do one task, or the other, but not both; the missions are simply mutually exclusive.
Last edited by Roland Pulfrew; 30th Jul 2011 at 15:57. Reason: spolling
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Standby to be told we are all wrong however.
I recognize the tone & confidence from the dutch MPA force.
Nobody could tell them what's really important, how it really works..
btw Roland good post, at least you explain why you don't agree
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The dutch are now considering taking Apaches on board.
Dutch leading government party wants to deploy apaches against pirates
"Pirate motherships" seem to be moderately impressed by Lynx' .50 / 7.62mm.
Some might state that is not how these assets are supposed to be used and these folks just don't understand a decent naval patrol operation.
IMO the requirements are changing rapidly & a 2025 MPA will look entire different then a P3 or Nimrod because of it.
Dutch leading government party wants to deploy apaches against pirates
"Pirate motherships" seem to be moderately impressed by Lynx' .50 / 7.62mm.
Some might state that is not how these assets are supposed to be used and these folks just don't understand a decent naval patrol operation.
IMO the requirements are changing rapidly & a 2025 MPA will look entire different then a P3 or Nimrod because of it.
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keesje,
I fail to see how an Apache will perform the roles (either traditional or those proscribed by you in previous posts) of an MPA. The AAR role will be particularly taxing!
Duncs
I fail to see how an Apache will perform the roles (either traditional or those proscribed by you in previous posts) of an MPA. The AAR role will be particularly taxing!
Duncs
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btw Roland good post, at least you explain why you don't agree
My friend, go back over your posts and responses. You will find that all this has been explained to you before.
You choose to ignore it, becaue you have decided you know best. Ergo, experienced professionals (or ex professionals in my case) will now just take the p**s because to us your ideas are infantile and so is your obstinance.
That is not to say, you have nothing to offer and you raise some good points. You are also correct that the UK government has ****ed up completely the UKs maritime defence.
But the answer is not some plastic, littoral, airfix model... or any other of the UAV/airship nonsense.
No **** sherlock.
Forgive me for not worrying too much about 2025, with the possibility of a nuclear exchange once again rearing its head - only this time with decidedly non-rational actors in the loop - 2025 looks a little far off to being predicting too much.
My friend, go back over your posts and responses. You will find that all this has been explained to you before.
You choose to ignore it, becaue you have decided you know best. Ergo, experienced professionals (or ex professionals in my case) will now just take the p**s because to us your ideas are infantile and so is your obstinance.
That is not to say, you have nothing to offer and you raise some good points. You are also correct that the UK government has ****ed up completely the UKs maritime defence.
But the answer is not some plastic, littoral, airfix model... or any other of the UAV/airship nonsense.
IMO the requirements are changing rapidly & a 2025 MPA will look entire different then a P3 or Nimrod because of it.
Forgive me for not worrying too much about 2025, with the possibility of a nuclear exchange once again rearing its head - only this time with decidedly non-rational actors in the loop - 2025 looks a little far off to being predicting too much.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Hmmmm. Well, if you just need a new airframe, with proven engines and props, to fit kit you've already designed inside, looks like there's a new alternative to second hand P-3s........ 
Ares: China's Maritime Patroller
China's AVIC-Shanxii Y-8F-600, a modernized version of a reverse-engineered Antonov An-12, is spawning a growing family of special-use variants without having apparently entered service as a transport. Two AEW versions (one with a rotodome and another with an AESA similar to Saab's EriEye) have been sighted. Now, the latest version is a weapons carrier -- an antisubmarine warfare aircraft.
The extensively modified airframe has a weapons bay, surface-search radar, EO/IR sensor turret (ahead of the weapons bay) and a magnetic anomaly detector boom at the end of a redesigned, ramp-less rear fuselage. It will presumably have an acoustics system and sonobuoy tubes.
It's the first ASW aircraft of this scale and capability for the Chinese armed forces, and the only such active program outside the USA (following the demise of the Nimrod MRA4 in last year's UK defense review). It's not hard to guess its intended targets.
Aircraft of this type are not usually found searching large tracts of ocean for submarines. Norman Friedman's book Network-Centric Warfare describes the P-3 as an interceptor, launched to prosecute targets detected by SOSUS (sound surveillance system). An isolated report in 2008 suggested that China was deploying its equivalent of SOSUS.
Other missions for oceanic-range ASW aircraft include providing cover for ballistic missile submarines, making it possible to detect and track hostile subs that might be trailing the SSBN as it leaves on a patrol.
The appearance of the new Y-8 platform indicates that China is expanding its ASW ambitions. Building an aircraft is only a small part of the ASW battle. It also requires sensor and processing technology -- systems like the P-8A Poseidon draw on decades of experience with acoustic systems, using passive and active sonobuoys to detect and pin down the target -- and human expertise. So what is important is that the PLA-N is setting off down that long and difficult road.
By the way, the engines on the Y-8F600 are Pratt & Whitney PW150s and the propellers are from GE's Dowty unit. The program was launched in 2001-03 as a commercial venture.
Ares: China's Maritime Patroller
China's AVIC-Shanxii Y-8F-600, a modernized version of a reverse-engineered Antonov An-12, is spawning a growing family of special-use variants without having apparently entered service as a transport. Two AEW versions (one with a rotodome and another with an AESA similar to Saab's EriEye) have been sighted. Now, the latest version is a weapons carrier -- an antisubmarine warfare aircraft.
The extensively modified airframe has a weapons bay, surface-search radar, EO/IR sensor turret (ahead of the weapons bay) and a magnetic anomaly detector boom at the end of a redesigned, ramp-less rear fuselage. It will presumably have an acoustics system and sonobuoy tubes.
It's the first ASW aircraft of this scale and capability for the Chinese armed forces, and the only such active program outside the USA (following the demise of the Nimrod MRA4 in last year's UK defense review). It's not hard to guess its intended targets.
Aircraft of this type are not usually found searching large tracts of ocean for submarines. Norman Friedman's book Network-Centric Warfare describes the P-3 as an interceptor, launched to prosecute targets detected by SOSUS (sound surveillance system). An isolated report in 2008 suggested that China was deploying its equivalent of SOSUS.
Other missions for oceanic-range ASW aircraft include providing cover for ballistic missile submarines, making it possible to detect and track hostile subs that might be trailing the SSBN as it leaves on a patrol.
The appearance of the new Y-8 platform indicates that China is expanding its ASW ambitions. Building an aircraft is only a small part of the ASW battle. It also requires sensor and processing technology -- systems like the P-8A Poseidon draw on decades of experience with acoustic systems, using passive and active sonobuoys to detect and pin down the target -- and human expertise. So what is important is that the PLA-N is setting off down that long and difficult road.
By the way, the engines on the Y-8F600 are Pratt & Whitney PW150s and the propellers are from GE's Dowty unit. The program was launched in 2001-03 as a commercial venture.
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Orac,
Not disputing anything you've just written, but having worked with our cousins across the pond, the last 3 words of this part made me laugh out loud.
Thanks
Not disputing anything you've just written, but having worked with our cousins across the pond, the last 3 words of this part made me laugh out loud.
systems like the P-8A Poseidon draw on decades of experience with acoustic systems, using passive and active sonobuoys to detect and pin down the target -- and human expertise.
Thanks
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The Key Aero site is reporting a PFI as imminent with the MoD using reengined and modified Catalinas for MPA starting operations by 2019. Then I noticed the date!