The cuts haven't reached the Herc Force yet then !
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All very sad to see the 'willy waving'; as others have said, it does no-one any favours and just makes those who 'snipe' appear foolish.
No matter what the cost, the training value of operating in/out Norway will be worth double, or even triple, any HOTAC bill (for very average accn at low rates). Herc guys get lots of time in tents in sh!tty parts of the world -perhaps more than most, so why don't we cut 'em a break?
Flying IFR in Norway is not the same as a visual 'milk-run' on Salisbury plain, Otterburn or anywhere else for that matter - it will bite you on the @rse incredibly quickly and without bags of extra pre-planning, you can very easily make a large smoking hole in the cumulo-granite with lots of burnt bodies! Perhaps HWI was not aware of this, as one could have been his/hers? It is arguable that, apart from the obvious weather difference, ops in Norway have a few skills that are transferrable to AFG - 'cold and white' can be more tricky than 'hot and high'.
Furthermore, Norwegian airfields are almost unique in N Europe (a bit like Innsbruck and Chambery, only worse) and is not somewhere AT crews have gone much in recent times (I was complaining of a lack of such training as far back as 2000/1). It is well worth the gov't expense for the crews to maintain their professional standards and experience of such marginal operations. Once upon a time, the beancounters at Gp would have prevented a 'double crew' on the basis of T&S budget for the ex but now, thank the Lord, they should be applauded for allowing more crews experience of 'cold and white' conditions - after all, that is why everyone else is there in the first place. Like accountants, some people seem to know the 'cost of everything but the value of nothing'!!
Hotac and rest rules for peacetime ex's exist for very simple reasons - safety and standardisation - that of the crew, pax and other aircraft who share the airways with RAF AT and is based on UK MoD AT policy. End of! If the ac was a J model, then they have much better performance than the old K but the same rules apply - you need 100% focus and awareness; BDU is not somewhere for the faint hearted. Perhaps those who don't understand the complexities of flying large multi-engine ac safely in such places should keep their thoughts and vitriol to themselves?
Hope the boys and girls enjoyed the experience of somewhere NOT hot and dusty?
As a taxpayer and pilot, I am more than happy with the value that the Herc crews & pilots will get when experiencing Noggie weather, staying in an average hotel for one night and getting decent rest before flying back from BDU - even if they are carrying some people who are 'hardly worth it'.
flipster
No matter what the cost, the training value of operating in/out Norway will be worth double, or even triple, any HOTAC bill (for very average accn at low rates). Herc guys get lots of time in tents in sh!tty parts of the world -perhaps more than most, so why don't we cut 'em a break?
Flying IFR in Norway is not the same as a visual 'milk-run' on Salisbury plain, Otterburn or anywhere else for that matter - it will bite you on the @rse incredibly quickly and without bags of extra pre-planning, you can very easily make a large smoking hole in the cumulo-granite with lots of burnt bodies! Perhaps HWI was not aware of this, as one could have been his/hers? It is arguable that, apart from the obvious weather difference, ops in Norway have a few skills that are transferrable to AFG - 'cold and white' can be more tricky than 'hot and high'.
Furthermore, Norwegian airfields are almost unique in N Europe (a bit like Innsbruck and Chambery, only worse) and is not somewhere AT crews have gone much in recent times (I was complaining of a lack of such training as far back as 2000/1). It is well worth the gov't expense for the crews to maintain their professional standards and experience of such marginal operations. Once upon a time, the beancounters at Gp would have prevented a 'double crew' on the basis of T&S budget for the ex but now, thank the Lord, they should be applauded for allowing more crews experience of 'cold and white' conditions - after all, that is why everyone else is there in the first place. Like accountants, some people seem to know the 'cost of everything but the value of nothing'!!
Hotac and rest rules for peacetime ex's exist for very simple reasons - safety and standardisation - that of the crew, pax and other aircraft who share the airways with RAF AT and is based on UK MoD AT policy. End of! If the ac was a J model, then they have much better performance than the old K but the same rules apply - you need 100% focus and awareness; BDU is not somewhere for the faint hearted. Perhaps those who don't understand the complexities of flying large multi-engine ac safely in such places should keep their thoughts and vitriol to themselves?
Hope the boys and girls enjoyed the experience of somewhere NOT hot and dusty?
As a taxpayer and pilot, I am more than happy with the value that the Herc crews & pilots will get when experiencing Noggie weather, staying in an average hotel for one night and getting decent rest before flying back from BDU - even if they are carrying some people who are 'hardly worth it'.
flipster
Last edited by flipster; 5th Mar 2011 at 08:16.
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I do not see a reason why the Mods should stop this thread. It shows, sadly, the views of one maybe two rather narrow minded people we have to call our compatriots!
As for the accommodation issue, in the current climate, there is no way this would have been approved unless it was needed for the rules. The comparison between Norway and any Op is ridiculous - the rules are different to meet legislation.
So to johnny whatshisface, shut-up and grow up - if you are able to of course!
As for the accommodation issue, in the current climate, there is no way this would have been approved unless it was needed for the rules. The comparison between Norway and any Op is ridiculous - the rules are different to meet legislation.
So to johnny whatshisface, shut-up and grow up - if you are able to of course!
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Hurrah for Flipster!!!
A most eloquent and concise post as always!
All AT crews ( subject to aircraft and weather limitations ) work their @rses off!! doing long and anti social hrs, twice that of any REMF Admin Bluntie , routinely 16-18 CDD's!!!!
So cut the boys some slack, if they manage to get a trip that is not to a sandy destination and can gain some valuable experience...good on em!!
The RAF has been extremey overstretched for years now, and one trip to Norway gets this much attention!!
Whoever has an issue.... should do the prep, selection, training, grnd and air cats / int briefs, put on the CBA , helmets and do all the other b***** and man up and try to achieve the constant standard that these AT crews constantly provide!!!!
Nuff said
All AT crews ( subject to aircraft and weather limitations ) work their @rses off!! doing long and anti social hrs, twice that of any REMF Admin Bluntie , routinely 16-18 CDD's!!!!
So cut the boys some slack, if they manage to get a trip that is not to a sandy destination and can gain some valuable experience...good on em!!
The RAF has been extremey overstretched for years now, and one trip to Norway gets this much attention!!
Whoever has an issue.... should do the prep, selection, training, grnd and air cats / int briefs, put on the CBA , helmets and do all the other b***** and man up and try to achieve the constant standard that these AT crews constantly provide!!!!
Nuff said
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Nice one Flip
Just because there is a war on does not mean that all essential training must cease.
In the good old days, before Gulf War One, when we still had around 60 working Hercs, training could be done in dedicated aircraft.
Now every working beast could be used ten times over.
You cannot send large training crews to the sand because every bit of decent real estate is kept, quite rightly, for the operating crews in theatre.
So the odd trip to Norway, Canada etc is always going to be used for "essential" training.
Crews do not pick their own HOTAC from the local AA guide. The tasking authority will pick it using GASO's as a guide.
And you can bet your sweet bippy, that in this day and age, they won't spend more than is absolutely essential
In the good old days, before Gulf War One, when we still had around 60 working Hercs, training could be done in dedicated aircraft.
Now every working beast could be used ten times over.
You cannot send large training crews to the sand because every bit of decent real estate is kept, quite rightly, for the operating crews in theatre.
So the odd trip to Norway, Canada etc is always going to be used for "essential" training.
Crews do not pick their own HOTAC from the local AA guide. The tasking authority will pick it using GASO's as a guide.
And you can bet your sweet bippy, that in this day and age, they won't spend more than is absolutely essential
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5 Star Hotels yes please
been on the herc fleet for many years now lived in some wonderful hotels, do I consider myself fortunate, yes i do , I've also lived on base on airfields in tents and slept in Albert on many occasions. I've also had passengers in the same hotels same on base accommodation same tents and even down the back of Albert for a cosy night or 2. And in previous employment had the pleasure of holes in the ground. It would be nice if you have a complaint about accommodation issues to have the guts to come and say it to our faces instead of on a web site people like you the military can do without hope redundancy terms suit you.
Last edited by ukcds; 5th Mar 2011 at 21:13. Reason: poor grammar
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How to get universally hated in one quick button press!
Even if you were intending to troll, bet you didn't think it would come round like this? so naive.
Just shows how little you know about the ways of the military and that of the AT fleet:
Of course the Herc crews don't individually book their hotels, fuel, handling, deice etc that is part of the tasking.
If it were the case, then why did YOU decide to go to Norway and spend 100s of £1000s on an ex?....... of course YOU didn't, you were tasked to. Just as they were tasked to come and get your sorry ass back to the UK.
As it is Norway in winter, and Bardufoss which has some very challenging approaches and departures, I would not be surprised if it was a double crew to get the trg. We used to have to get screened into Norway in winter until too many cuts, too much deployed tasking and not enough trg came our way.
If you had any intellect and understanding of the bigger picture, you would understand how all 3 services are badly hurting - and that includes the crabs as well as the RN and Royals. Just read the SDSR - you can read can't you?
Very disappointing thread. And whilst this is a rumour network, this is not rumourous, it is venomous. Moderators please delete.
Hardly - if you want a really uncomfortable trip back to the UK on your AT flight, I dare you to say this in person to the crew! If fact in the words of Pulf Fiction "I double dare you - MF!" mmmm, I thought not! Better just bleat on an anonymous forum that actually man-up. Muppet
Hope the Boyz enjoyed one of the very few non-deployment stops around these days. Keep on truckin'. TWZ
Even if you were intending to troll, bet you didn't think it would come round like this? so naive.
Just shows how little you know about the ways of the military and that of the AT fleet:
Of course the Herc crews don't individually book their hotels, fuel, handling, deice etc that is part of the tasking.
If it were the case, then why did YOU decide to go to Norway and spend 100s of £1000s on an ex?....... of course YOU didn't, you were tasked to. Just as they were tasked to come and get your sorry ass back to the UK.
As it is Norway in winter, and Bardufoss which has some very challenging approaches and departures, I would not be surprised if it was a double crew to get the trg. We used to have to get screened into Norway in winter until too many cuts, too much deployed tasking and not enough trg came our way.
If you had any intellect and understanding of the bigger picture, you would understand how all 3 services are badly hurting - and that includes the crabs as well as the RN and Royals. Just read the SDSR - you can read can't you?
Very disappointing thread. And whilst this is a rumour network, this is not rumourous, it is venomous. Moderators please delete.
Hardly - if you want a really uncomfortable trip back to the UK on your AT flight, I dare you to say this in person to the crew! If fact in the words of Pulf Fiction "I double dare you - MF!" mmmm, I thought not! Better just bleat on an anonymous forum that actually man-up. Muppet
Hope the Boyz enjoyed one of the very few non-deployment stops around these days. Keep on truckin'. TWZ
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What an awful thread.....so very sad.
I hope that the current HMG, MOD and senior officers are aware of the years of Jointery, forged over many campaigns (particularly in the last 20 years) that are now being undone in the period of under a year (post SDSR in Oct 10).
The speed and lack of coherence of the so called strategic review, the ambiguity and uncertainty in the immediate aftermath, the frustration at the short sightedness of the political 'elite' when the world remains unstable, the threat of significant job losses, pension and payreductions , the following on from a SDSR straight into a major Planning Round and the failure of any decision making all results in the very caustic and unnecessary posts that we have sadly seen in this thread.
What is being missed is the human element, the people in all this - and the current environment is making forces personnel do, say and act in some extremely unusual ways because they/we are experiencing some extremely unusual pressure at the moment.
It does not forgive this post and the ensuing descent, but I can see a possible explanation.
I hope that the current HMG, MOD and senior officers are aware of the years of Jointery, forged over many campaigns (particularly in the last 20 years) that are now being undone in the period of under a year (post SDSR in Oct 10).
The speed and lack of coherence of the so called strategic review, the ambiguity and uncertainty in the immediate aftermath, the frustration at the short sightedness of the political 'elite' when the world remains unstable, the threat of significant job losses, pension and payreductions , the following on from a SDSR straight into a major Planning Round and the failure of any decision making all results in the very caustic and unnecessary posts that we have sadly seen in this thread.
What is being missed is the human element, the people in all this - and the current environment is making forces personnel do, say and act in some extremely unusual ways because they/we are experiencing some extremely unusual pressure at the moment.
It does not forgive this post and the ensuing descent, but I can see a possible explanation.
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Good to see the RAF herc crews cop as much flak as we do down under in regard to accommodation standards.
Hardly worth it - face it mate you ticked the wrong box at recruiting so just live with it.
Remember:
"the army sleep under the stars, the navy navigates by the stars and the air force pick their hotels by the stars."
Frazzled
Hardly worth it - face it mate you ticked the wrong box at recruiting so just live with it.
Remember:
"the army sleep under the stars, the navy navigates by the stars and the air force pick their hotels by the stars."
Frazzled
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Divide and conquer. That's what all this sniping leads to.
A pretty weak argument really. I reckon it's just an excuse for Hardly Worth It to do some RAF bashing. Bash away fella, water off a duck's back. I would argue back but fear even the best responses would struggle to break down your prejudice.
A pretty weak argument really. I reckon it's just an excuse for Hardly Worth It to do some RAF bashing. Bash away fella, water off a duck's back. I would argue back but fear even the best responses would struggle to break down your prejudice.
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It looks as though this thread is finally running out of steam. At the beginning I was vastly amused by it. The naughty originator tossed his bait into the waters of Prune and sat back to watch the result. I am certain he was not disappointed by the feeding frenzy that ensued. So what was it really all about? Why the fuss?
A naval aviator (I presume), at the end of a training deployment in North Norway, posted a brief message and unleashed jihad! He clearly struck a sensitive nerve. So what inflammatory things did he actually say, in what some light blue jihadis have called his “rant”, which could have justified unleashing all this venom?
“Crabs are flying into Bardufoss on Fri to pick us up in a Herc”. This is presumably correct and fairly uncontroversial. Couldn’t be that.
“Crew of 10!!!!!”. No reason to doubt its veracity and, according to the general opinion on this thread, fully justifiable. A bit over heavy on the exclamation marks though, which could perhaps ruffle the odd sensitive feather.
“Accom offered here but they have already booked into the Bardufoss hotel”. Seems to be factually correct and, according to the general opinion on this thread, fully justifiable. I suppose that merely drawing attention to the favourable ATF accommodation arrangements by a member of another service coming off exercise is mildly divisive and controversial, but surely nothing unusual or serious.
“Will cost over 2 grand for the night”. Actual amount is questionable, though some significant expense was clearly incurred. This was a mite tactless of the poster.
“I hate Crabs”. Ah, this could be it! Hang on though. A personal opinion, rude and over the top, but almost certainly tongue firmly in cheek and certainly no worse than the usual derogatory “banter” which is strongly defended by most of the ruder posters on Prune when their own excesses are challenged.
So what was it in the above that prompted 93 posts of fatwah and outraged cries to the mods to remove it? Damned if I know.
My initial amusement at the spectacular over-reaction of our crab friends soon evaporated and has left me feeling rather sad. Has the morale of the RAF fallen so low that they have lost any reasonable sense of perspective and have become so paranoid and defensive that the slightest hint of criticism sets them off into a gigantic bate? If so it is indeed tragic.
Though a Pongo, I am a great admirer of the RAF and indeed number more than one in my immediate family. I actually think that, as a service, the RAF chain of command is handling the current capability cuts and redundancies rather well in the circumstances and, when the national financial crisis has been resolved in five or so years, they will be seen to have ended up relatively well off in terms of modern resources and capabilities compared to the other services. However, I deplore the cynical, abrasive, selfish, disloyal, often rather desperate bleatings that are becoming the norm from individual crabs on Prune. You are better than that.
Keep your nerve chaps. Keep your sense of proportion. Above all, keep your sense of humour. We love you really!
A naval aviator (I presume), at the end of a training deployment in North Norway, posted a brief message and unleashed jihad! He clearly struck a sensitive nerve. So what inflammatory things did he actually say, in what some light blue jihadis have called his “rant”, which could have justified unleashing all this venom?
“Crabs are flying into Bardufoss on Fri to pick us up in a Herc”. This is presumably correct and fairly uncontroversial. Couldn’t be that.
“Crew of 10!!!!!”. No reason to doubt its veracity and, according to the general opinion on this thread, fully justifiable. A bit over heavy on the exclamation marks though, which could perhaps ruffle the odd sensitive feather.
“Accom offered here but they have already booked into the Bardufoss hotel”. Seems to be factually correct and, according to the general opinion on this thread, fully justifiable. I suppose that merely drawing attention to the favourable ATF accommodation arrangements by a member of another service coming off exercise is mildly divisive and controversial, but surely nothing unusual or serious.
“Will cost over 2 grand for the night”. Actual amount is questionable, though some significant expense was clearly incurred. This was a mite tactless of the poster.
“I hate Crabs”. Ah, this could be it! Hang on though. A personal opinion, rude and over the top, but almost certainly tongue firmly in cheek and certainly no worse than the usual derogatory “banter” which is strongly defended by most of the ruder posters on Prune when their own excesses are challenged.
So what was it in the above that prompted 93 posts of fatwah and outraged cries to the mods to remove it? Damned if I know.
My initial amusement at the spectacular over-reaction of our crab friends soon evaporated and has left me feeling rather sad. Has the morale of the RAF fallen so low that they have lost any reasonable sense of perspective and have become so paranoid and defensive that the slightest hint of criticism sets them off into a gigantic bate? If so it is indeed tragic.
Though a Pongo, I am a great admirer of the RAF and indeed number more than one in my immediate family. I actually think that, as a service, the RAF chain of command is handling the current capability cuts and redundancies rather well in the circumstances and, when the national financial crisis has been resolved in five or so years, they will be seen to have ended up relatively well off in terms of modern resources and capabilities compared to the other services. However, I deplore the cynical, abrasive, selfish, disloyal, often rather desperate bleatings that are becoming the norm from individual crabs on Prune. You are better than that.
Keep your nerve chaps. Keep your sense of proportion. Above all, keep your sense of humour. We love you really!
During my 20 odd years on RAF SH it was always the AAC that dripped on, incessantly, about the the RAFs hotel culture even when we were colocated with them! Never heard anything from the Navy though, strange that they should start now. Sign of the times I guess.
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That made me smile.
the army sleep under the stars, the navy navigates by the stars and the air force pick their hotels by the stars
A fantastic piece of Banter, long overdue in this thread.
