PJI Watch
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Hey echo and aircrew bod why don't you two just get a room and have a bit of 
time together....
time together....
Last time I looked we were fighting a war where CAS & Int were very much needed and airborne assault wasn't.
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Runaway Gun
And would you like to inform us of when the LAST British airborne assault took place (I know, but just wondered if you did) I'm not talking about any SF drops, but Para battallion stuff. In all honesty can you ever see it being used again. I hope the're not being kept just so the Cherry Berets can keep wearing their hats.
For Spelling, Thanks AA
And would you like to inform us of when the LAST British airborne assault took place (I know, but just wondered if you did) I'm not talking about any SF drops, but Para battallion stuff. In all honesty can you ever see it being used again. I hope the're not being kept just so the Cherry Berets can keep wearing their hats.
For Spelling, Thanks AA
Last edited by Top Bunk Tester; 24th Feb 2011 at 08:18.
TBT - I see your side here, I'm just critical of the method applied to seemingly blindly justify cutting such capabilities and expertise - especially by people who don't know anything about the role (nothing personal).
When's the last time an RAF F-4, F-3 or Typhoon shot down an enemy aircraft?
When's the last time an RAF F-4, F-3 or Typhoon shot down an enemy aircraft?
Last edited by Runaway Gun; 24th Feb 2011 at 07:54. Reason: I'm rubish at Spelling
Red On, Green On
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And would you like to inform us of when the LAST British airbourne* assault took place (I know, but just wondered if you did) I'm not talking about any SF drops, but Para battallion stuff.
It's not hard to imagine airborne/waterborne forces being deployed in just the situations we've been seeing in North Africa to secure and defend a port/airfield to enable an evacuation to take place.
The flexibility of delivery offered by the Paras, Marines and the likes of 3 Sqn could be just what is needed some time soon - the fact that they have not been used day in, day out for a while does not mean they are redundant.
*There is no U in airborne, but there is a U in ..
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Nothing personal taken
I know the answer to that too, although the story varies and I'm not talking about the Jaguar.
I firmly believe that there is more chance of a shoot down occurring than of an airborne assault. I also see your broader point of view WRT cuts. However if you put the current action(s) that we're involved with aside, then any logical mind would say that the future needs to concentrate on SH, S/T AT, CAS & Int. But whoever said that logic from Parliment or MoD would ever play a part in sensible decision making. And I'm with you in that we don't need as many FJ assets ..... in fact post SDSR we'll have a lot less, but then every part of our services have been hit, apart it seems from the biggest waste of space at BZN that is PTS
AA
Am I missing something here? At which point in OP Palliser did any, non SF, parachuting take place? I assume that you took airborne assault in it's broadest term.
In order for any of the scenarios you describe above to take place there needs to be the following in place first .... SH, S/T AT, CAS & Int ..... before anybody steps through any door on a green light.
I am not denouncing the Para battallions in any way and am fully aware of their contributions, past and present, I just question ONE of their roles for the future. And yes I have done the odd 1 or 1500 jumps.
Nothing personal taken
I know the answer to that too, although the story varies and I'm not talking about the Jaguar.
I firmly believe that there is more chance of a shoot down occurring than of an airborne assault. I also see your broader point of view WRT cuts. However if you put the current action(s) that we're involved with aside, then any logical mind would say that the future needs to concentrate on SH, S/T AT, CAS & Int. But whoever said that logic from Parliment or MoD would ever play a part in sensible decision making. And I'm with you in that we don't need as many FJ assets ..... in fact post SDSR we'll have a lot less, but then every part of our services have been hit, apart it seems from the biggest waste of space at BZN that is PTS
AA
Am I missing something here? At which point in OP Palliser did any, non SF, parachuting take place? I assume that you took airborne assault in it's broadest term.
In order for any of the scenarios you describe above to take place there needs to be the following in place first .... SH, S/T AT, CAS & Int ..... before anybody steps through any door on a green light.
I am not denouncing the Para battallions in any way and am fully aware of their contributions, past and present, I just question ONE of their roles for the future. And yes I have done the odd 1 or 1500 jumps.
Last edited by Top Bunk Tester; 24th Feb 2011 at 08:48.
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I will fall on my sword if wrong, but at what strength did this drop take place, Squad, Coy, Regt, Btn? If less than Coy then you can't really call it a full scale airborne assault. Also was it actually necessary at all, or was it another little publicity coup to keep airborne forces going, could it have been done successfully by other means ..... Tactical landing and deployment by Herc for example.
I will fall on my sword if wrong, but at what strength did this drop take place, Squad, Coy, Regt, Btn? If less than Coy then you can't really call it a full scale airborne assault. Also was it actually necessary at all, or was it another little publicity coup to keep airborne forces going, could it have been done successfully by other means ..... Tactical landing and deployment by Herc for example.
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AA
Am I missing something here? At which point in OP Palliser did any, non SF, parachuting take place? I assume that you took airborne assault in it's broadest term.
Am I missing something here? At which point in OP Palliser did any, non SF, parachuting take place? I assume that you took airborne assault in it's broadest term.
Also was it actually necessary at all, or was it another little publicity coup to keep airborne forces going, could it have been done successfully by other means ..... Tactical landing and deployment by Herc for example.
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There's one tiny little point that everyone misses about Marines, Paras etc. and it often has little to do with the actual use in operations. Marine and Parachute training, when complete, leaves you with fit, highly trained, highly motivated soldiers that one can rely upon unquestionably. Just as many people ask "why do they need to be so fit, why all the beasting"? It's far more than "can Private Bloggs get from A to B with a humongous pack at the speed of a greased gazelle?". It about pushing the man to his physical limits... Then a little further and watch what he does. If he quits or slacks off he's finished. What you have left are the men you want.
Remove that "pinnacle" of regular soldier and all you've done is allow your standards to drop and have lost a whole gob of capability and experience. You can manufacture the former - the latter will cost lives.
Remove that "pinnacle" of regular soldier and all you've done is allow your standards to drop and have lost a whole gob of capability and experience. You can manufacture the former - the latter will cost lives.
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As I said earlier, nothing but admiration for our 'airborne' forces et al. I am just talking about cutting out one of their roles and then by definition disestablishing PTS
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It's far more than "can Private Bloggs get from A to B with a humongous pack at the speed of a greased gazelle?"
The trouble with CDS/CAS talking about airborne/seaborne training in this way is that it makes the infantry look like second-class citizens
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Originally Posted by Top Bunk Tester
I am just talking about cutting out one of their roles and then by definition disestablishing PTS
I don't have a view either way on what use PJI's are to the RAF, but my opinion for what it's worth is that if you saved money by discarding PTS, that you would not get it back elsewhere in the shape of an aircraft or helicopter, so another wasted capability, gone just like Maritime Patrol.
Last edited by Army Mover; 24th Feb 2011 at 14:22. Reason: Typooooo
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What, Why and for How Long has the PJI Benevolent Fund existed!
First I've heard of it and it doesn't Google easily (aka 'at all')!
Sounds like a scam to me, chaps, to fur-line somebody's back pockets!
Foldie (
the sceptic!)
First I've heard of it and it doesn't Google easily (aka 'at all')!
Sounds like a scam to me, chaps, to fur-line somebody's back pockets!
Foldie (
the sceptic!)
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Now don't get me wrong, the thought of jumping out of an aircraft for no good reason is one of those things that wakes me at 3 am once in a blue moon...I am not a fan of the idea, although when I did fly I would probably have happily strapped a chute on if available, as I am pretty sure I cannot fly.
BUT (heaven help me) I'm with Airborne Aircrew on his point - the para training produces an excellent soldier, and whether he ever does drop into combat is immaterial, because he has shown time and time again that this soldier is simply better than the other regiments produce.
The less troops you have, the more they need to be like Sylvester Stallone (in the films, not real life). I would have thought the cost of keeping this all going, set against the force multiplier that is airborne qualification, made it a fairly good deal. They're tougher troops, end of.
Dave
BUT (heaven help me) I'm with Airborne Aircrew on his point - the para training produces an excellent soldier, and whether he ever does drop into combat is immaterial, because he has shown time and time again that this soldier is simply better than the other regiments produce.
The less troops you have, the more they need to be like Sylvester Stallone (in the films, not real life). I would have thought the cost of keeping this all going, set against the force multiplier that is airborne qualification, made it a fairly good deal. They're tougher troops, end of.
Dave
In peacetime parachuting is about the only infantry exercise that is genuinely frightening, plus it also usually takes place at dawn, after no sleep for 24 hours, possibly after puking a couple of times, and then is followed by a strenuous test of stamina - just like a real operation. Most other infantry exercises miss out the "genuinely frightening" part which rather defeats the objective of the excercise.
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As other have alluded to, lobbing in is only the method of transportation - the hard work begins after that.
I always alikened it to running a 1/2 marathon in terms of the build-up, inevitable delays when the frame goes t*ts, back on the bus having not slept, lob itself, and then the adrenalin comedown when you realise that you can still talk and walk and have a job to do.
It is genuinely hard work and the guys that do it are those that have proved to others that they will push themselves a little futher when their noses are to the grindstone. The Army does not need PJIs - it is not that hard and no black art despite what those resident in the hangar in Oxon might have you think. There are plenty with the skills that could teach this alongside their other job. Other different parachuting skills included.
So...is this watch company something that might be need reporting to Trading Standards?
Is it being run by a PJI-retd type?
I always alikened it to running a 1/2 marathon in terms of the build-up, inevitable delays when the frame goes t*ts, back on the bus having not slept, lob itself, and then the adrenalin comedown when you realise that you can still talk and walk and have a job to do.
It is genuinely hard work and the guys that do it are those that have proved to others that they will push themselves a little futher when their noses are to the grindstone. The Army does not need PJIs - it is not that hard and no black art despite what those resident in the hangar in Oxon might have you think. There are plenty with the skills that could teach this alongside their other job. Other different parachuting skills included.
So...is this watch company something that might be need reporting to Trading Standards?
Is it being run by a PJI-retd type?
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Airborne Aircrew.
That's odd............thought I had one as well
Good banter tho.
Not so sure about a threesome
I got my bite though
Good banter tho.Not so sure about a threesome
Last edited by Echo 5; 25th Feb 2011 at 05:01.
I hope the're not being kept just so the Cherry Berets can keep wearing their hats
Last edited by Trim Stab; 24th Feb 2011 at 19:34. Reason: forgot the quote marks -doh..