Odly enough, I have not seen a thread to mark this momentous occasion
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,071
Received 2,939 Likes
on
1,252 Posts
Oddly enough, I have not seen a thread to mark this momentous occasion
So I have copied it over here.
Farewell navigator . .
Farewell navigator . .
Farewell navigator . . 18/02/2011
Training of navigators in the RAF ceased forever today as the 3 last students graduated at RAF Cranwell.
The graduates - Flight Lieutenants Sam Baker, James Lamb and Helena Phillips - were presented with their Weapon Systems Officer (WSO) brevets by the RAF's most senior operational commander, Air Chief Marshal Sir Simon Bryant, Commander-in-Chief Air Command and the most senior navigator the RAF has seen.
All 3 will now move to RAF Leeming to finish training on Hawks before moving on to the Tornado GR4 bomber.
The navigators' 'N' brevet changed to the illustrated 'WSO' one in 2003, when the navigator and air electronic officer branches amalgamated. Prior to 'N' it was the 'O' observers' brevet until 1942.
The Station Commander explained at the ceremony that, in the very early days, aircrew sewed a sixpenny piece behind their brevets to make them stand out, and in a very nice touch, Flight Lieutenant Harry Hughes DFC DFM - an 89-year-old navigator who survived 76 operations in WWII - presented each of the graduates with a sixpenny (well, actually 5p . .) piece.
The Institute's Navigation Trophy - for achieving the highest overall standard of air navigation, academic studies and personal qualities - went to Sam Baker. Past-Director, Group Captain David Broughton, represented the Institute at the ceremony and offered a period of Guest membersip to the graduates.
So 25-year-old Helena Phillips BEng Hons has become the last ever person to graduate as a RAF navigator . . a poignant reminder of changing times . .
The Institute is hoping to run a half-day event to commemorate the passing of the RAF navigator - provisionally planned for 27 June in the RAF Club. Watch this space for further details.
Training of navigators in the RAF ceased forever today as the 3 last students graduated at RAF Cranwell.The graduates - Flight Lieutenants Sam Baker, James Lamb and Helena Phillips - were presented with their Weapon Systems Officer (WSO) brevets by the RAF's most senior operational commander, Air Chief Marshal Sir Simon Bryant, Commander-in-Chief Air Command and the most senior navigator the RAF has seen.
All 3 will now move to RAF Leeming to finish training on Hawks before moving on to the Tornado GR4 bomber.
The navigators' 'N' brevet changed to the illustrated 'WSO' one in 2003, when the navigator and air electronic officer branches amalgamated. Prior to 'N' it was the 'O' observers' brevet until 1942.
The Station Commander explained at the ceremony that, in the very early days, aircrew sewed a sixpenny piece behind their brevets to make them stand out, and in a very nice touch, Flight Lieutenant Harry Hughes DFC DFM - an 89-year-old navigator who survived 76 operations in WWII - presented each of the graduates with a sixpenny (well, actually 5p . .) piece.
The Institute's Navigation Trophy - for achieving the highest overall standard of air navigation, academic studies and personal qualities - went to Sam Baker. Past-Director, Group Captain David Broughton, represented the Institute at the ceremony and offered a period of Guest membersip to the graduates.
So 25-year-old Helena Phillips BEng Hons has become the last ever person to graduate as a RAF navigator . . a poignant reminder of changing times . .
The Institute is hoping to run a half-day event to commemorate the passing of the RAF navigator - provisionally planned for 27 June in the RAF Club. Watch this space for further details.
Last edited by NutLoose; 20th Feb 2011 at 16:15.
More bang for your buck
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: land of the clanger
Age: 82
Posts: 3,512
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agreed wander00, but also as a member of RIN I'm concerned what happens say 20 years down the line in a real war if the enemy trashes satnav. Tankers wont be able to find the rendezvous point, maritime searches get lost etc. or is there a contingency plan?
More bang for your buck
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: land of the clanger
Age: 82
Posts: 3,512
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Errr.... Yeah, they're called INS and his mate l@ser Ring Gyro.
I think it would be, it's a bit patronising to suggest otherwise. Sadly, most navigators these days would struggle to go back to basics as they don't have the depth of training to fall back on. Couple that with the fact that rev-nav is right at the bottom of things to do once you've achieved all of the other BTRs. I'm speaking from a predominently RW background so I might be incorrect for FJ these days.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France 46
Age: 77
Posts: 1,743
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Odd that nobody has commented on the Rank escalation. Looking at my first log book I see that in December 1967 I flew with three different Plt Off Navigators and one Sgt Navigator on my OCU Course. I didn't get to Flt Lt until I was at CFS having served on 2 Squadrons.
PS You had to pass the "B" exam to get to Flt Lt in those days.
PS You had to pass the "B" exam to get to Flt Lt in those days.
g g
Two points.
Firstly, as a member of the RIN I'm sure you are aware that modern navigation systems for aircraft are often a GPS/IN mix, i.e. they combine a GPS and IN system. While the GPS is working it is the primary source of navigation data. If the GPS falls over then the IN is ready to take over. However, it gets better....
If the GPS and IN have had the chance to run in tandem for any length of time then the IN has had a chance to assess its errors, accelerometer bias, etc. As a result, if the GPS becomes unavailable for some reason (e.g. failure, jamming, satellites shot down, etc) what is left is not just an IN, but effectively a "super IN", with much better performance, reduced error growth, etc.
Secondly, any decent navigation system should allow a (presumably expanding?) square search to be set up with only a few button pushes, and would probably automatically fly the aircraft around it. While setting up the search the pilot might well be eyes in, but then the actual search hasn't started yet.....
By the way, I'm a nav, and can accept that technology is now capable of doing most of the tasks that I used to do while flying.....
P.S
F B - As the Tornado fleet probably has less than 10 years of life left, and will gradually draw down during that period, one would like to think that someone has done the sums and worked out that we have enough GR4 navs left in the system to last until then...... Don't hold your breath!!
Two points.
Firstly, as a member of the RIN I'm sure you are aware that modern navigation systems for aircraft are often a GPS/IN mix, i.e. they combine a GPS and IN system. While the GPS is working it is the primary source of navigation data. If the GPS falls over then the IN is ready to take over. However, it gets better....
If the GPS and IN have had the chance to run in tandem for any length of time then the IN has had a chance to assess its errors, accelerometer bias, etc. As a result, if the GPS becomes unavailable for some reason (e.g. failure, jamming, satellites shot down, etc) what is left is not just an IN, but effectively a "super IN", with much better performance, reduced error growth, etc.
Secondly, any decent navigation system should allow a (presumably expanding?) square search to be set up with only a few button pushes, and would probably automatically fly the aircraft around it. While setting up the search the pilot might well be eyes in, but then the actual search hasn't started yet.....
By the way, I'm a nav, and can accept that technology is now capable of doing most of the tasks that I used to do while flying.....
P.S
F B - As the Tornado fleet probably has less than 10 years of life left, and will gradually draw down during that period, one would like to think that someone has done the sums and worked out that we have enough GR4 navs left in the system to last until then...... Don't hold your breath!!
GG - I was not making a philosophical point, merely congratulating the "last" of the WSOs to qualify. Philosophocally, I am appalled at the state to which the Royal Air Force, to which I have been attached in one way or another since the age of 13, is being downsized, emasculated, pared to the bone, or whichever other expression one might prefer. As the Falklands and Gulf 1 showed, it does not take much of a reduction in force size to make effective intervention impossible - in both of those we got away by the skin of our teeth - and just after we have SDSR we have the Middle East imploding ...watch this space!
More bang for your buck
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: land of the clanger
Age: 82
Posts: 3,512
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes I can accept the INS is a solution, I tend to be an ancient sceptic on 'new fangled technology' as far as nav work is concerned, never grew out of the sextant era really mainly because in those days it tended to be unreliable. 
You must work for the CAA!
They still seem to be stuck in the astrolabe, quadrant staff and lodestone era of navigation.....
They still seem to be stuck in the astrolabe, quadrant staff and lodestone era of navigation.....
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Age: 84
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Number 14 Sqn RNZAF [CanberraB12], once had a Nav as Boss, and he later became CAS, the first of his breed to ever achieve that position, and he was ex-RAF.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 304
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah...my experience as well..from an Australian ex P3C flyer!
Whilst based in Fiji flying for Air Pacific some years ago, (pre first military coupe!), I found out there was a 10 Squadron P3 overnighting in town on their way to RIMPAC.
So naturally I went down to the local airport hotel to meet up and say Hi to any guys I knew in the crew.
Well, it turns out that 'one of the navs' and others I did know from my past days in the P3 Maritime world.
After a few drinks, I was very surprised to find that the nav I was talking old times with, was actually now the CO of the squadron...you could have knocked me over with a...well, never mind...I remembered him as a Pilot Officer Nav...how time flies, errr well, you know what I mean!
Up till then I always assumed that COs of flying squadrons would always be a pilot, as it had always been.
That was around 2001, then, in 2008 at the celebrations of 40 years of P3s in the RAAF, I met that nav again, now he is the Group Captain in command of the Maritime Strike Group.
So don't tell me that navs have a dead-end job!
Whilst based in Fiji flying for Air Pacific some years ago, (pre first military coupe!), I found out there was a 10 Squadron P3 overnighting in town on their way to RIMPAC.
So naturally I went down to the local airport hotel to meet up and say Hi to any guys I knew in the crew.
Well, it turns out that 'one of the navs' and others I did know from my past days in the P3 Maritime world.
After a few drinks, I was very surprised to find that the nav I was talking old times with, was actually now the CO of the squadron...you could have knocked me over with a...well, never mind...I remembered him as a Pilot Officer Nav...how time flies, errr well, you know what I mean!
Up till then I always assumed that COs of flying squadrons would always be a pilot, as it had always been.
That was around 2001, then, in 2008 at the celebrations of 40 years of P3s in the RAAF, I met that nav again, now he is the Group Captain in command of the Maritime Strike Group.
So don't tell me that navs have a dead-end job!