Linton rumour
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Goon suit
I knew there was an issue but not sure what it was - thanks for clearing it up. Can you see a way round it? Risk management of flight over the sea? The problem will be departing from 19 or recovering to 01 for the 5 months of the year when the sea temp is low (which is a frequent occurrence). It is, however, damn helpful that we are lucky enough to have a SAR unit based here, therefore rescue times should be at their absolute minimum. Maybe the bean counters will write it off as acceptable, and the tincans will just crack on?
True, but don't forget there are 6 other SAR helicopters at Valley on top of the Sea Kings, and their operating hours are pretty similar to what the Tucanos would do!
I was looking at a chart the other day, and my eye was drawn to cluster of airfields running north to south down the A1, Leeming, Topcliffe, Dishforth, Linton-on-Ouse and Church Fenton.
Given the current, and projected, size of UK military avaiation I'm afraid the thought that immediately sprang into my mind was:
"...that set up is totally unsustainable...".
Given the current, and projected, size of UK military avaiation I'm afraid the thought that immediately sprang into my mind was:
"...that set up is totally unsustainable...".
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Ref: RAF Valley.
Was the Hunter / Gnat / Whirlwind situation very much different from what is being proposed in the form of Hawk / Tucano / Rotary? Valley appeared to operate well in the 70s.
Could Tucano operate primarily from Mona in the same way that DHFS initially proposed to operate a Squirrel Sqn from Tern Hill. ie First flight out of Valley lands at Mona, and last flight from Mona returns home. Thats what portacabins are for if the support real estate is missing at this time.
I suppose closing the Vale of York and firing up Llanbedr is taking the Pee.
Was the Hunter / Gnat / Whirlwind situation very much different from what is being proposed in the form of Hawk / Tucano / Rotary? Valley appeared to operate well in the 70s.
Could Tucano operate primarily from Mona in the same way that DHFS initially proposed to operate a Squirrel Sqn from Tern Hill. ie First flight out of Valley lands at Mona, and last flight from Mona returns home. Thats what portacabins are for if the support real estate is missing at this time.
I suppose closing the Vale of York and firing up Llanbedr is taking the Pee.
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Yozzer, deploying to Mona like you suggest would be the way forward but, as has been mentioned previously, cannot currently happen whilst the SK OCU (Airfield Denial Wpn) do just that. In the past, there wasn't an issue as the Gnats and Hunters essentially operated at the same speed in the cct and did not get in each others way; the Whirlwinds/Wessex just did their own SAR stuff without bothering anybody. Trying to operate 3 completely different training aircraft types from one airfield (even 2 if Mona is included) that are reliant on prolonged cct bashing is a recipe for disaster. But, why should that stop it from happening!
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MUSINGS
Two other scenarios spring to mind:
1. Close Valley, Mona (that should get a round of applause from what I hear), Linton & Church Fenton (Boo!) and move all FT to Leeming using Topcliffe and Dishforth as RLGs (could both be justified? - probably not) for the Tincans; you could call it 7FTS….. Move the (tiny, tiny) Rotary Wing element to a RW orientated flying unit; take your pick….
Politically acceptable to the coalition, keeps jobs in a now employment blackspot (York & the NE) while sending a message to the Welsh Nationalists of ‘well, you always wanted Valley closed and you do vote PC and Labour so, now, suck it up’.
2. Alternatively, if you wanted to ‘preserve’ Leeming in its current state/role, move all FT to Linton (would the ‘risk’ of Hawks operating routinely from a 6,000ft rwy with no barriers be acceptable?) and continue to use one of Topcliffe, Dishforth, Church Fenton as an RLG with the Hawks using Leeming as an RLG to justify its retention…… The political and RW scenarios stay the same as option 1.
BTW use the Wash Ranges for weapons training, and I suppose the weapons issue (storage) militates against option 2 but supports option 1.
Think of it…. Hawk AFT in North Yorks…….
1. Close Valley, Mona (that should get a round of applause from what I hear), Linton & Church Fenton (Boo!) and move all FT to Leeming using Topcliffe and Dishforth as RLGs (could both be justified? - probably not) for the Tincans; you could call it 7FTS….. Move the (tiny, tiny) Rotary Wing element to a RW orientated flying unit; take your pick….
Politically acceptable to the coalition, keeps jobs in a now employment blackspot (York & the NE) while sending a message to the Welsh Nationalists of ‘well, you always wanted Valley closed and you do vote PC and Labour so, now, suck it up’.
2. Alternatively, if you wanted to ‘preserve’ Leeming in its current state/role, move all FT to Linton (would the ‘risk’ of Hawks operating routinely from a 6,000ft rwy with no barriers be acceptable?) and continue to use one of Topcliffe, Dishforth, Church Fenton as an RLG with the Hawks using Leeming as an RLG to justify its retention…… The political and RW scenarios stay the same as option 1.
BTW use the Wash Ranges for weapons training, and I suppose the weapons issue (storage) militates against option 2 but supports option 1.
Think of it…. Hawk AFT in North Yorks…….
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The SAR folks need the harbour to swim in and the mountains to play on otherwise it would have been a good idea, with the SAR Op cab colocated with NW Police Air Service. However it will never happen; ever. Even if Valley were to close the SAR empire would reduce to a Boulmer style operation in their present location. Transit time to play pens costs money you know.
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Lots of ideas as to what should go where etc - but there are the " legal caveats" as to what should happen to Airfields where the land was requisitioned if the MOD disposes of that land.
I trained at 6 FTS RAF Acklington in the mid 1960's and the Airfield was a hive of building activity to create new accommodation and other facilities. A few years later the Airfield closed and it had to be returned to its original condition. I visited that area a few years ago and I only found where the Airfield had been with the help of the Farmer whose Family Land had been returned to him. Everything had been demolished and the land returned to pasture.
The point is that it was MOD that had the responsibility to return the land to its original condition (as specified by the Act of Parliament that allowed its requisition) prior to returning the land to the original owner.
I trained at 6 FTS RAF Acklington in the mid 1960's and the Airfield was a hive of building activity to create new accommodation and other facilities. A few years later the Airfield closed and it had to be returned to its original condition. I visited that area a few years ago and I only found where the Airfield had been with the help of the Farmer whose Family Land had been returned to him. Everything had been demolished and the land returned to pasture.
The point is that it was MOD that had the responsibility to return the land to its original condition (as specified by the Act of Parliament that allowed its requisition) prior to returning the land to the original owner.
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Whilst I understand that you are right; the ghost of airfields past scattered around the country with livestock overnighting in the remains of former squadron buildings is testiment to that not being applicable in all cases. Valley was an expansion era airfield and may well have land that is held under the caveat of leaving as was. Reality though is that it would not be destined for an industrial estate or farmland whilst the tourism industry could make it into a goldmine. Even in these days of economic gloom the Mess would be a hotel quicker then you could say "I stayed there once".
cazatou,
Are you SURE you mean Acklington?
Having been there for a few visits over the last decade or so, most recent being Oct last year, I can tell you that the entire former RAF station, ie domestic and technical site, is now Her Majesty's Prison Acklington, a large category C establishment, and that the majority of the former RAF buildings, including the Gaydon hangar are still in use and are very recognisable as ex RAF.
The actual airfield site was sold off for open cast mining and the entire surface area of the airfield was removed to a depth of over 30 feet. Hardly what I would call restoring to pasture!
Are you SURE you mean Acklington?
Having been there for a few visits over the last decade or so, most recent being Oct last year, I can tell you that the entire former RAF station, ie domestic and technical site, is now Her Majesty's Prison Acklington, a large category C establishment, and that the majority of the former RAF buildings, including the Gaydon hangar are still in use and are very recognisable as ex RAF.
The actual airfield site was sold off for open cast mining and the entire surface area of the airfield was removed to a depth of over 30 feet. Hardly what I would call restoring to pasture!
Could the basic training be sold off to civilian operating companies? Move the Leeming Hawks to DTVA and the various motor glider/tutor untits to the nearest civil drone.
Hmmm.....
All the references I have (Action Stations 7, 1959-ish half-mill RAF aeronautical chart, Google Earth aerodromes overlay) show the aerodrome itself to have been situated in the centre of a triangle formed by the East Coast main railway line, the old LNER line to Amble and the B6345 from Acklington village to Togston. I.e. immediately to the north of the domestic site, now the 2 prisons, at OS Grid SU230010.
The Google maps image show this (in 2006) to be open farmland; the ugly open cast mine works are well to the south of the prisons and the old line to Amble. Perhaps the original 1980s mine works have since been made good and the land returned to pasture?
In May 1995, I was 'volunteered' to fly 2 senior officers to Northumbria in a Piper Warrior. They helpfully suggested landing at Acklington..... I'm not quite sure how they'd got to their exalted position in the RAF without knowing that the aerodrome had been closed to flying for over 20 years. I told them that we'd have to land at Woolsington instead; due to 3PoB we couldn't get enough fuel in without an en-route splash-and-dash at Gamston. Where the wretched aircraft had a magneto failure, so they continued by rail whilst the aircraft was fixed for my trip home the following day - without them...
Time to spare......
Anyway, move the Hawks to Yeovilton, the Tucanos to Merryfield, move the navy to Culdrose and give Valley to the army...
All the references I have (Action Stations 7, 1959-ish half-mill RAF aeronautical chart, Google Earth aerodromes overlay) show the aerodrome itself to have been situated in the centre of a triangle formed by the East Coast main railway line, the old LNER line to Amble and the B6345 from Acklington village to Togston. I.e. immediately to the north of the domestic site, now the 2 prisons, at OS Grid SU230010.
The Google maps image show this (in 2006) to be open farmland; the ugly open cast mine works are well to the south of the prisons and the old line to Amble. Perhaps the original 1980s mine works have since been made good and the land returned to pasture?
In May 1995, I was 'volunteered' to fly 2 senior officers to Northumbria in a Piper Warrior. They helpfully suggested landing at Acklington..... I'm not quite sure how they'd got to their exalted position in the RAF without knowing that the aerodrome had been closed to flying for over 20 years. I told them that we'd have to land at Woolsington instead; due to 3PoB we couldn't get enough fuel in without an en-route splash-and-dash at Gamston. Where the wretched aircraft had a magneto failure, so they continued by rail whilst the aircraft was fixed for my trip home the following day - without them...
Time to spare......
Anyway, move the Hawks to Yeovilton, the Tucanos to Merryfield, move the navy to Culdrose and give Valley to the army...
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I just found a site (on t'web - as they would say up there) which has aerial photographs of former Airfields in Northumberland that show the Airfield (as I knew it) has been returned to agricultural use.
The Prison was built next to the new RAF Married Quarters that were themselves built just before the Airfield closed.
I just found a site (on t'web - as they would say up there) which has aerial photographs of former Airfields in Northumberland that show the Airfield (as I knew it) has been returned to agricultural use.
The Prison was built next to the new RAF Married Quarters that were themselves built just before the Airfield closed.
Her Majesty's Prison Acklington, a large category C establishment, and that the majority of the former RAF buildings, including the Gaydon hangar are still in use and are very recognisable as ex RAF
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I knew there was an issue but not sure what it was - thanks for clearing it up. Can you see a way round it? Risk management of flight over the sea? The problem will be departing from 19 or recovering to 01 for the 5 months of the year when the sea temp is low (which is a frequent occurrence). It is, however, damn helpful that we are lucky enough to have a SAR unit based here, therefore rescue times should be at their absolute minimum. Maybe the bean counters will write it off as acceptable, and the tincans will just crack on?
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to get this back on topic, i believe there have been a couple of recent studies done at linton to see if moving to either Leeming or Valley was viable..
something in the order of £85m to move the tucanos to Valley and over £100m to move them to Leeming, with no real savings as linton would have to remain open for accommodation if they went to Leeming and would have to be returned to pre-airfield state if they went to Valley
You'd like to think that those figures would make it unfeasible but seeing what has gone on under this government so far who knows...!
something in the order of £85m to move the tucanos to Valley and over £100m to move them to Leeming, with no real savings as linton would have to remain open for accommodation if they went to Leeming and would have to be returned to pre-airfield state if they went to Valley
You'd like to think that those figures would make it unfeasible but seeing what has gone on under this government so far who knows...!
no real savings as linton would have to remain open for accommodation if they went to Leeming