Linton rumour
sure that I saw somewhere that the Hawk T2 was considered not to need the tincan as a lead-in and could fulfil both functions as a precursor to Typhoon and Dave (model TBN). Given potential timescales for closure etc, if this is true, could we not close Linton and mothball the tincan at the same time in 2-3 years??
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Torque,
Happy Shopper plan! Haha! I'm not sure using Tincan from Valley would be impossible. Pretty frikkin tricky, but not impossible. Tracking (via a couple of corridors?) off and on Anglesey could keep you feet dry. PD's and mixed cct traffic would surely be greater stoppers for the "shoppers" plan...?!
Anyway, there seems to be an awful prescience in the order of 28 Hawk 128's. I'm sure we were all scratching our heads going "why only 28?" at the time of the order...!
Seems like Spookily accurate procurement now!!
Happy Shopper plan! Haha! I'm not sure using Tincan from Valley would be impossible. Pretty frikkin tricky, but not impossible. Tracking (via a couple of corridors?) off and on Anglesey could keep you feet dry. PD's and mixed cct traffic would surely be greater stoppers for the "shoppers" plan...?!
Anyway, there seems to be an awful prescience in the order of 28 Hawk 128's. I'm sure we were all scratching our heads going "why only 28?" at the time of the order...!
Seems like Spookily accurate procurement now!!
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Would the mixed cct be a massive problem? Genuine question because I'm not aircrew, managed to work a mixed cct plus PDs at FNY years ago, in fact it made people better controllers (I assumed the same with aircrew). Certainly more aware than most of the ones we get through now.
I don't want Linton to go, loved the place. Shut Valley, Fenton and Toppers. Keep Linton and Leeming (either one RLG) use the shiny Linton tower for LEE radar and the fast jet guys get their night time div airfield (assuming Leeming actually start opening past 6 pm)
I don't want Linton to go, loved the place. Shut Valley, Fenton and Toppers. Keep Linton and Leeming (either one RLG) use the shiny Linton tower for LEE radar and the fast jet guys get their night time div airfield (assuming Leeming actually start opening past 6 pm)
Indie,
No doubt you're right, though don't forget all those bl00dy helicopters...11 based at Valley at the last count plus the frequent visiting ones...yes the helos generally stay LL but ATC still need to keep an eye on everyone (or at least they think they do!). As you say, the instrument pattern would truly be a nightmare with no alternatives nearby for the Tucano or RW folks (NB SARTU and 203 Sqn both teach IF, it's not just SCT where being broken off at 1300' on every GCA still gets the required tick!
). As for the tiny Hawk 128 order, yes I agree, and note with angst that not a single replacement helo trainer has yet been ordered...eek!
Well we have just had the new MFTS hangar open, which does make Valley's future look less secure than it did
. Or should I say the new SARTU hangar
No doubt you're right, though don't forget all those bl00dy helicopters...11 based at Valley at the last count plus the frequent visiting ones...yes the helos generally stay LL but ATC still need to keep an eye on everyone (or at least they think they do!). As you say, the instrument pattern would truly be a nightmare with no alternatives nearby for the Tucano or RW folks (NB SARTU and 203 Sqn both teach IF, it's not just SCT where being broken off at 1300' on every GCA still gets the required tick!
). As for the tiny Hawk 128 order, yes I agree, and note with angst that not a single replacement helo trainer has yet been ordered...eek!
Shut Valley
. Or should I say the new SARTU hangar
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I think you guys need to get real. Yeovilton operates and has operated 100+ mixed RW and FW for years (including RW and FW training) with no particular flight safety problem. At its peak there were about 130 aircraft there. ATC were pretty good though! Culdrose in its heyday did the same.
I am not saying that BFT and AFT mix well but the FW training requirement has reduced very significantly and with JCA training likely to be in the US it may be even less in the future.
I am not saying that BFT and AFT mix well but the FW training requirement has reduced very significantly and with JCA training likely to be in the US it may be even less in the future.
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Ty Croes
Ty Croes never had anywhere to land, it was a anti aircraft armament and missile testing facility opened in 1952 closed in the 1970's. Valley used the AMQ's for a while.
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Bismark raised an interesting point - 100 aircraft based at Yeovilton and up to 130 at one stage. So how many airfields is the RAF likely to need looking ahead ?
Sobering thought.
Sobering thought.
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Why and how has Valley survived for so long? It is miles from anywhere so logistic support must cost millions extra per year. Nobody but the Viet Taff would want to be there. Perhaps the SAR and mountain training can be justified, but the rest? It's a joke. Surely a few thousand Welsh votes cannot be worth all that effort and expense.
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Too many stations without runways.
With all this time spent on looking closely at things, perhaps someone needs to ask how many airfields the RAF needed in 2005 not just in 2015.
The waste of money is huge, and nobody seems to care. Most of what I read is about how we should save raf somewhere because it was great for summer camps in the 70s or all the people who work there are nice chaps.
A decision needs to be made about saving the Royal Air Force in the same way that decisions need to be made about saving airfields. This process needs to be done by impartial people looking at facts.
Scenario 1. Imagine for instance, you have bought a nice house, just on the edge of camp. You are intending to sell it to someone posted in at or about the time you leave. Possibly you could find a civvy buyer wanting to live outside the two big towns nearby.
Now, the airfield is threatened with closure, lots of houses around you going on the market... not good.
You are going to be posted, nobody replacing you....what's going to happen to your house value? If you get made redundant rather than posted, this may not be where you want to live, given the lack of jobs around here with the airfield closing.
That's hardly the basis for you stating the best option for the RAF, and more of a reason for you to make up a case for retaining the airfiled.
Scenario 2. A retired serviceman with a large house nearby and a job on station to top up his pension. Whatever his considered opinion on the requirements of the service, practical issues dictate he will not want to suggest closing the airfield.
There are loads of variations on this so the decision needs taken by someone not involved. We can only hope.
The work carried out for the RAF by civvy contractors ought to be brought back in house, particularly the aircraft at Teeside. They could go to Cranwell with the Leeming Hawks. Dundee airport have a flying school with an MOD contract to train Pilots. Why are the RAF not doing that?
With no axe to grind, here's my plan for a cost effective RAF Footprint.
Lossie (the north)
Cranwell (Historical and handy as a diversion for the north of England and all EFTS/BFTS and 100 Sqdn)
Scampton/Waddington (one or the other to cover the east coast)
Wittering (Can't be sold it seems so it should get Odiham & Benson units)
Marham (just until the Tornado fleet is scrapped)
Shawbury (central but not really required unless Odiham and Benson aircraft are moved in)
Brize (Tanker facilities)
Valley (the west, where all jet training will be done)
Mona (part of Valley)
St. Mawgan (the south, for detachments and to protect us from the French)
Perhaps a case could be made to retain Halton, Coningsby and St. Athan, but I doubt it.
That should be all the flying stations required.
Odd bits like
Boulmer
Spade
Fylingdales
Tain
Wainfleet
Still need to exist, but the combo at Brampton, Wyton & Henlow could relocate to a flying station, just as the huge number of bodies in High Wycombe ought to. As for RAF Uxbridge....
Discuss:
The waste of money is huge, and nobody seems to care. Most of what I read is about how we should save raf somewhere because it was great for summer camps in the 70s or all the people who work there are nice chaps.
A decision needs to be made about saving the Royal Air Force in the same way that decisions need to be made about saving airfields. This process needs to be done by impartial people looking at facts.
Scenario 1. Imagine for instance, you have bought a nice house, just on the edge of camp. You are intending to sell it to someone posted in at or about the time you leave. Possibly you could find a civvy buyer wanting to live outside the two big towns nearby.
Now, the airfield is threatened with closure, lots of houses around you going on the market... not good.
You are going to be posted, nobody replacing you....what's going to happen to your house value? If you get made redundant rather than posted, this may not be where you want to live, given the lack of jobs around here with the airfield closing.
That's hardly the basis for you stating the best option for the RAF, and more of a reason for you to make up a case for retaining the airfiled.
Scenario 2. A retired serviceman with a large house nearby and a job on station to top up his pension. Whatever his considered opinion on the requirements of the service, practical issues dictate he will not want to suggest closing the airfield.
There are loads of variations on this so the decision needs taken by someone not involved. We can only hope.
The work carried out for the RAF by civvy contractors ought to be brought back in house, particularly the aircraft at Teeside. They could go to Cranwell with the Leeming Hawks. Dundee airport have a flying school with an MOD contract to train Pilots. Why are the RAF not doing that?
With no axe to grind, here's my plan for a cost effective RAF Footprint.
Lossie (the north)
Cranwell (Historical and handy as a diversion for the north of England and all EFTS/BFTS and 100 Sqdn)
Scampton/Waddington (one or the other to cover the east coast)
Wittering (Can't be sold it seems so it should get Odiham & Benson units)
Marham (just until the Tornado fleet is scrapped)
Shawbury (central but not really required unless Odiham and Benson aircraft are moved in)
Brize (Tanker facilities)
Valley (the west, where all jet training will be done)
Mona (part of Valley)
St. Mawgan (the south, for detachments and to protect us from the French)
Perhaps a case could be made to retain Halton, Coningsby and St. Athan, but I doubt it.
That should be all the flying stations required.
Odd bits like
Boulmer
Spade
Fylingdales
Tain
Wainfleet
Still need to exist, but the combo at Brampton, Wyton & Henlow could relocate to a flying station, just as the huge number of bodies in High Wycombe ought to. As for RAF Uxbridge....
Units stationed at Uxbridge are the Headquarters of Music Services and No 63 Squadron of the RAF Regiment, better known as the Queens Colour Squadron
Discuss:
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I thought QCS were going to Northolt and Uxbridge was closing?
Surely you dont expect the high and mighty to drive further than Northolt for a flight?
Surely you dont expect the high and mighty to drive further than Northolt for a flight?
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Linton is doomed as it is one of the few airfields the RAF have left that can actually be closed. Many of the others have covenants that require them to be returned to the original owner in the state that they were in when first occupied. Removing bomb dumps that glow in the dark and HAS sites is awfully expensive - the MOD is broke and can't afford to. LOZ will be relatively cheap to close.
As for putting Tincans in VYL, the mixed circuit is going to be dangerous. Yes, VLN may cope with a gazzillion aircraft but they aren't flown by a student who has very few flying hours and is maxxed out just trying to fly S&L, let alone having to cope with a fast jet 4 ship breaking into the circuit and a 80 kt helo flying a PAR into a 30 kt headwind!!!! Throw in the Sea Kings (203 Sqn) that are now going to be around for a while longer and the situation becomes untenable. VYL does have an RLG at Mona but the Sea Kings block book that for half a day at a time, denying its use to fixed wing. If the Tincans are to be placed at VYL, the Sea Kings have to go - 3 completely disparate training types cannot be mixed at one location.
As for VYL closing, dream on. With the closure of most of the major employers on Anglesey, the RAF is the last one left. Politically, its closure will be unacceptable, sigh.......
As for putting Tincans in VYL, the mixed circuit is going to be dangerous. Yes, VLN may cope with a gazzillion aircraft but they aren't flown by a student who has very few flying hours and is maxxed out just trying to fly S&L, let alone having to cope with a fast jet 4 ship breaking into the circuit and a 80 kt helo flying a PAR into a 30 kt headwind!!!! Throw in the Sea Kings (203 Sqn) that are now going to be around for a while longer and the situation becomes untenable. VYL does have an RLG at Mona but the Sea Kings block book that for half a day at a time, denying its use to fixed wing. If the Tincans are to be placed at VYL, the Sea Kings have to go - 3 completely disparate training types cannot be mixed at one location.
As for VYL closing, dream on. With the closure of most of the major employers on Anglesey, the RAF is the last one left. Politically, its closure will be unacceptable, sigh.......
>>flown by a student who has very few flying hours and is maxxed out just trying to fly S&L, let alone having to cope with a fast jet 4 ship breaking into the circuit <<
Had to laugh at that one. I did my first solo in a JP at a Jaguar station. I remember calling for take off only to interrupted by a Jag 4 ship on the break to land. They were told to hold off because of a 'student on his first solo'.
I distinctly remember being about half way through my take off roll when a voice called out of the ether:
"Is he airborne yet?"
Under the circumstances I thought it was rather an unsympathetic call.
Had to laugh at that one. I did my first solo in a JP at a Jaguar station. I remember calling for take off only to interrupted by a Jag 4 ship on the break to land. They were told to hold off because of a 'student on his first solo'.
I distinctly remember being about half way through my take off roll when a voice called out of the ether:
"Is he airborne yet?"
Under the circumstances I thought it was rather an unsympathetic call.
Cranwell (Historical and handy as a diversion for the north of England and all EFTS/BFTS and 100 Sqdn)
Bin Scampton, save Waddo as the ISTAR hub and use Coningsby for the East Coast stuff. Stop basing stuff at Leeming but keep the airfield (N/S runway, got a cable, semi-handy for OTAs E and F). Undecided on Leuchars vs Lossie, but agree that Marham should stay until TGRF dies.
Move helos into Wittering?! Isn't the bulk of their trade (barring Spade and Otterburn etc) on Salisbury Plain?
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As for putting Tincans in VYL, the mixed circuit is going to be dangerous. Yes, VLN may cope with a gazzillion aircraft but they aren't flown by a student who has very few flying hours and is maxxed out just trying to fly S&L, let alone having to cope with a fast jet 4 ship breaking into the circuit and a 80 kt helo flying a PAR into a 30 kt headwind!!!! Throw in the Sea Kings (203 Sqn) that are now going to be around