Westcountry-based helicopter elite force in jeopardy
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MaroonMan4
If we can't talk about the reality (or potential reality) of what may or may not happen, surely we become as head in the sand as our leaders, within whom I include the civil servants?
Nothing that's been written thus far has been unpleasant or rude and nobody is crowing about anything thus far.
We're just talking.
FB11
If we can't talk about the reality (or potential reality) of what may or may not happen, surely we become as head in the sand as our leaders, within whom I include the civil servants?
Nothing that's been written thus far has been unpleasant or rude and nobody is crowing about anything thus far.
We're just talking.
FB11
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Ok FB11,
Not aimed you, but general observation.
And sorry, talk away-I was detecting incipient thread degeneration with a few snipes, but then again I could be becoming too sensitive to the poisonous atmosphere and negative single service comments.
Forgive me for intruding.
Not aimed you, but general observation.
And sorry, talk away-I was detecting incipient thread degeneration with a few snipes, but then again I could be becoming too sensitive to the poisonous atmosphere and negative single service comments.
Forgive me for intruding.
Last edited by MaroonMan4; 20th Feb 2011 at 19:21.
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I thought that FB11's post was thoughtful and tactful, even if it didn't give options which everyone liked.
I would also suggest the following for any next phase of FJ procurement.
As we are but a small and broke nation, then it seems to me that any aircraft should be amphibious and flat-top capable and then regardless of who is driving it (if indeed anyone is actually in the cockpit and not sat elsewhere) then it could be deployed from carriers (ours or someone else's) as well as working from tarmac.
I would also distance the whole MoD from anything which is "shiny and not yet available" and go for off the shelf options which are upgradable.
Unfortunately there are more than enough snake-oil addicts who belivee that the next 'new' thing is snake-oil and will make everything all right.
I would also suggest the following for any next phase of FJ procurement.
As we are but a small and broke nation, then it seems to me that any aircraft should be amphibious and flat-top capable and then regardless of who is driving it (if indeed anyone is actually in the cockpit and not sat elsewhere) then it could be deployed from carriers (ours or someone else's) as well as working from tarmac.
I would also distance the whole MoD from anything which is "shiny and not yet available" and go for off the shelf options which are upgradable.
Unfortunately there are more than enough snake-oil addicts who belivee that the next 'new' thing is snake-oil and will make everything all right.
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A recent visit to a secret airbase in oxon by a man of rank with a large protruberance eminating from his boat-race would suggest that things are about to get a whole lot more joint than they have been, ie more RN on RAF/Army Sqns as posted from DHFS, and vice versa. Likewise joint OEUs and standards units. This may have merit in that it will stop single service bickering and destroy the 'I didn't join the RAF to fly off boats' ego trip. Sadly though, I think it is being done to save the more senior 4* leadership the embarassment of making a whole fleet of single service aircrew redundant - especially given how the Daily Mail and its ilk would react to helicopter cutbacks in the wake of all the negative publicity that befell Gordon Brown.
Oh, and I agree with MM4 - the who should get what arguments have all been done on at least 2 other threads.
Oh, and I agree with MM4 - the who should get what arguments have all been done on at least 2 other threads.
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How much is the Royal marines being reduced?
I seam to remember it was something like 750 people equiv to one infantry Bn.
David Cameron has given a written reply confirming the transfare of Merlin HC fleet to the FAA so another U turn by the government?
to an outsider It would make sense for the Merlin fleet to have 1 operator and support chain.
except the government now has other plans for the Merlin HC fleet maybe going Yellow?
I seam to remember it was something like 750 people equiv to one infantry Bn.
David Cameron has given a written reply confirming the transfare of Merlin HC fleet to the FAA so another U turn by the government?
to an outsider It would make sense for the Merlin fleet to have 1 operator and support chain.
except the government now has other plans for the Merlin HC fleet maybe going Yellow?
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High Spirits,
You and I may have been listening to the same individual- but hence my caution, although he alluded to more RN joining RAF and AAC Sqns,he did place a big caveat in that we could easily be joining RN and Army Sqns to save us (and the Prime Minister who has written this letter confirming that Merlin is destined to the RN and that in Parliament during SDSR where the PM said that we would procure 14 new CH47) from having the embarrassment of laying off even more Service pilots having only just returned from this war in Afghan and knowing all to well that he will need the helicopters for any....absolutely any!Defence scenario in the future (less all out nuclear war).
I am acutely aware that our very senior officers have been conducting a morale boosting PR campaign to keep us all happy as they recognise how low our morale is and how low we feel on the shop floor....
So I am taking everything that any of our 'stars' say with a pinch of salt......would you believe anything that anyone says anymore.....look how much we are chopping and changing, with little direction, decision making or leadership.
You and I may have been listening to the same individual- but hence my caution, although he alluded to more RN joining RAF and AAC Sqns,he did place a big caveat in that we could easily be joining RN and Army Sqns to save us (and the Prime Minister who has written this letter confirming that Merlin is destined to the RN and that in Parliament during SDSR where the PM said that we would procure 14 new CH47) from having the embarrassment of laying off even more Service pilots having only just returned from this war in Afghan and knowing all to well that he will need the helicopters for any....absolutely any!Defence scenario in the future (less all out nuclear war).
I am acutely aware that our very senior officers have been conducting a morale boosting PR campaign to keep us all happy as they recognise how low our morale is and how low we feel on the shop floor....
So I am taking everything that any of our 'stars' say with a pinch of salt......would you believe anything that anyone says anymore.....look how much we are chopping and changing, with little direction, decision making or leadership.
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MM4,
Thats what I suggested when I said 'and vice versa'. My Big Fat Greek Compromise. It will confuse the UK taxpayer and bury the inevitable pre and post Afg redundancies in the fog of war. The politicians have done it again, reduced us to parochialism and divided and conquered. I just hope that they reduce the numbers of Staff Officers and HQs accordingly.
BTW, have the 'rockstar helicopters' survived PR11 - any rumours?
Thats what I suggested when I said 'and vice versa'. My Big Fat Greek Compromise. It will confuse the UK taxpayer and bury the inevitable pre and post Afg redundancies in the fog of war. The politicians have done it again, reduced us to parochialism and divided and conquered. I just hope that they reduce the numbers of Staff Officers and HQs accordingly.
BTW, have the 'rockstar helicopters' survived PR11 - any rumours?
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Into the firing line...as one who used to have a connection
(and no disrespect or offence intended to the excellent work of the civilian SAR/MRT), but how about the Government/MOD, do the following:
Keep a military SAR/ MRT presence, which would give the UK:
a. An excellent service to the FJ mates, over land and sea.
b. Excellent SAR training for military crews later adapting to possibly undertake such challenges in a war zone.
c. Excellent turnaround for crews, especially for SH/SF mates. They are, I would imagine, presently serving 1 or 2 tours (3 to 6 years) in and out of conflict zones so a stability tour or two may come as a welcome relief.
d. Military monitoring of the UK coast-line.
e. Excellent PR.
f. Even more Capable Agile and Adaptable Helicopter crews.
Possible ways to help achieve this:
1. Buy enough of the Sikorsky H-92 helicopters for both the SH, SAR, SF and the RN, thus replacing both the Puma, Sea King and the RN ‘junglies’, which would give:
Just a thought as I believe positive action is required and PDQ!
I’ll get me coat
(and no disrespect or offence intended to the excellent work of the civilian SAR/MRT), but how about the Government/MOD, do the following:Keep a military SAR/ MRT presence, which would give the UK:
a. An excellent service to the FJ mates, over land and sea.
b. Excellent SAR training for military crews later adapting to possibly undertake such challenges in a war zone.
c. Excellent turnaround for crews, especially for SH/SF mates. They are, I would imagine, presently serving 1 or 2 tours (3 to 6 years) in and out of conflict zones so a stability tour or two may come as a welcome relief.
d. Military monitoring of the UK coast-line.
e. Excellent PR.
f. Even more Capable Agile and Adaptable Helicopter crews.
Possible ways to help achieve this:
1. Buy enough of the Sikorsky H-92 helicopters for both the SH, SAR, SF and the RN, thus replacing both the Puma, Sea King and the RN ‘junglies’, which would give:
a. The RAF and the RN continuity of training.
b. A Drastic reduction in Role conversion costs.
c. An even more Capable Agile and Adaptable Helicopter.
2. Allow limited civilian advertising on the yellow SAR airframes, or allow companies to advertise their sponsorship of RAF SAR. It would surely pay dividends for companies who quite readily pay out fortunes to so called ‘celebs’ to advertise their wares, so why not to the military SAR? Every little helps!b. A Drastic reduction in Role conversion costs.
c. An even more Capable Agile and Adaptable Helicopter.
Just a thought as I believe positive action is required and PDQ!
I’ll get me coat
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yes cracking ideas Give sikorsky the contract!
2 issues we've no money and 2. we've no money
If we had the money why not run a proper competitive tender balancing cost and capability and buying what comes out best with a tightly defined and realistic specification drawn up by people who know what they're talking about. Free from political/industrial pressure and wanting a mature product not a drawing.
2 issues we've no money and 2. we've no money
If we had the money why not run a proper competitive tender balancing cost and capability and buying what comes out best with a tightly defined and realistic specification drawn up by people who know what they're talking about. Free from political/industrial pressure and wanting a mature product not a drawing.
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Slightly off topic but does anybody know how many grey Merlins are currently surplus to requirements and how much work would be required to re-role them to SAR? Might that not be the way ahead for future SAR, thus freeing up that £6 Billion that we were going to throw at Soteria to instead shore up the future requirements of SH and Junglie fleets?
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Although money is, in general, the major issue right now I am not sure it will entirely drive what happens with SAR. Funding was agreed for SARH - if the MoD can find a solution within that funding line then that solution will surely be taken. The fact that funding is currently presumably allocated through the DfT not the MoD surely doesn't matter to the Treasury - it's all one not-so-big pot. A solution that sorts out the CHF, new Chinook, and SAR mess vaguely along the lines that tramp suggests might not be so ridiculous.
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Nurse and minigundiplomat,
Didn’t the MOD go through a tendering process from 2000 onwards as part of the PF initiative, isn’t that why the S92 was chosen?
Sikorsky gave a presentation of their S-92 helicopter to a SARF conference in, I think, 2003, at the same time as Wasteland gave their ‘Merlin’ presentation. My understanding of the event was that the entire audience were bowled over by the ingenuity of the S-92, especially:
1. The active vibration control system feature, which prolongs airframe life by reducing fatigue loads on the aircraft.
2. The number of safety features such as flaw tolerance, bird strike capability and engine burst containment incorporated into the design.
3. Adherence to FAA FAR part 29 that has led the FAA certification board to call the S-92 the "safest helicopter in the world"
4. The S-92 reportedly met the FAR part 29 "run dry" requirement by asserting the loss of oil pressure in the main gear box is "extremely remote"
Seems to me that they drew up a tightly defined and realistic specification and seemed know what they're talking about.
Yes the H92 is still has a year or so to go before entering production for the Canadians as the Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone. I would imagine that when it does, it will be hailed in the same way as the S92.
As for Wasteland, did they attempt to get the opinions of those on the coal face when they designed the ‘Merlin’.....no, they completely bloody ignored them.
Winch placement, crash seating, ramp etc, etc, etc the list goes on and on!!
Ah...money!! Yes a challenge, but how much more of a challenge if the private company running SAR, when entrenched in its position, starts to hold HM Government to ransom. How messy it could get in negotiations and what of the implications should a new company take over the running the show every 6-years or so? It makes sense to me as the security of the Nation, in the medium to long term, is at stake; Speculate to accumulate.
So I stand by my comments: keep a Military SAR presence for the reasons given, buy a proven helicopter for use across the RAF/RN, thus massively reducing costs and giving them flexibility and adaptability; I would have thought that the Puma and the Junglies are approaching their sell by date anyway!
Oh, and steer clear of Wastelands
!!
Sikorsky gave a presentation of their S-92 helicopter to a SARF conference in, I think, 2003, at the same time as Wasteland gave their ‘Merlin’ presentation. My understanding of the event was that the entire audience were bowled over by the ingenuity of the S-92, especially:
1. The active vibration control system feature, which prolongs airframe life by reducing fatigue loads on the aircraft.
2. The number of safety features such as flaw tolerance, bird strike capability and engine burst containment incorporated into the design.
3. Adherence to FAA FAR part 29 that has led the FAA certification board to call the S-92 the "safest helicopter in the world"
4. The S-92 reportedly met the FAR part 29 "run dry" requirement by asserting the loss of oil pressure in the main gear box is "extremely remote"
Seems to me that they drew up a tightly defined and realistic specification and seemed know what they're talking about.
Yes the H92 is still has a year or so to go before entering production for the Canadians as the Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone. I would imagine that when it does, it will be hailed in the same way as the S92.
As for Wasteland, did they attempt to get the opinions of those on the coal face when they designed the ‘Merlin’.....no, they completely bloody ignored them.
Winch placement, crash seating, ramp etc, etc, etc the list goes on and on!!
Ah...money!! Yes a challenge, but how much more of a challenge if the private company running SAR, when entrenched in its position, starts to hold HM Government to ransom. How messy it could get in negotiations and what of the implications should a new company take over the running the show every 6-years or so? It makes sense to me as the security of the Nation, in the medium to long term, is at stake; Speculate to accumulate.
So I stand by my comments: keep a Military SAR presence for the reasons given, buy a proven helicopter for use across the RAF/RN, thus massively reducing costs and giving them flexibility and adaptability; I would have thought that the Puma and the Junglies are approaching their sell by date anyway!
Oh, and steer clear of Wastelands
!!
Fash/fsr/sabr/fmh/rws
I stand by my comments: keep a Military SAR presence for the reasons given, buy a proven helicopter for use across the RAF/RN, thus massively reducing costs and giving them flexibility and adaptability; I would have thought that the Puma and the Junglies are approaching their sell by date anyway
If only you could have got yourself posted to any one of the PE/DPA/DES PTs, or one of the many capability sponsors (DOR Sea/Air, DEC TM, DEC ALM, Cap ALM) or even a FLC (Fleet, NC, Strike, Air, Land, JHC) then you could have clearly solved this gordian knot of an enigma wrapped up in conundrum, disguised by a dilema and had the whole of UK helicopter acquisition and support sewed up in a neat, affordable package. Or...
b. its a little bit more complex than you think.
Still, at least the current SofS is going to fix the whole unholy mess...
Nick
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.......or maybe if we had less TLAs and reams of costly organisations who each put their oar in (you didn't even mention the Q-word from Boscombe), then we could buy decent kit, off the shelf for a fraction of what it has cost. Today's politician guff from Dr Fox was just anti-mil spin so that he can justify carving more chunks out of the military without too much opposition from the public.
Slagging off other peoples ideas because they are simple in concept does not mean that they are wrong.
Slagging off other peoples ideas because they are simple in concept does not mean that they are wrong.
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Bloody computer
NH, I was a lot closer to what was going on than you think and have had experience at the sharper end!
I never said it would be simple and look at the mess we are in because of how those, procuring in the past, dealt with such 'complex' issues
NH, I was a lot closer to what was going on than you think and have had experience at the sharper end!
I never said it would be simple and look at the mess we are in because of how those, procuring in the past, dealt with such 'complex' issues
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tramps,
before you praise the S92/H92 too loudly, you might want to visit the rotorheads forum and read the S92 and Newfoundland crash threads. It ain't all they claim it is!
Cheers
before you praise the S92/H92 too loudly, you might want to visit the rotorheads forum and read the S92 and Newfoundland crash threads. It ain't all they claim it is!
Cheers
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oldgrubber
S92 and Newfoundland crash threads.
Thanks, looking at them now, sincerest condolences to all those involved.
Plenty of S92 pilots still singing it's praises though; Any BoE report out yet?
Also:
BERLIN, Feb. 25 (UPI) -- The German armed forces are testing 13 new NH90 helicopters and they are not amused.
An internal military report, leaked to German mass daily Bild, blasted the many shortcomings of the multi-purpose helicopter developed and built by Eurocopter daughter NHIndustries. The 103-page report goes as far as recommending using alternative aircraft in operational scenarios.
Germany has ordered 122 NH90 for the army and the air force for around $6.2 billion but the testing of the pre-serial model revealed several deficiencies.
1.Clearance is so limited that soldiers have trouble getting in and out of the helicopter
2. the rear ramp is too weak to support fully equipped soldiers
3. the plane's floor is so sensitive that it can be cracked by boots
4.the seats are unable to accommodate more than 240 pounds. The fact that modern infantry equipment weighs 55 pounds means that larger and more muscular soldiers will have to stay out.
If true, they didn't learn from the 'Merlin'; Wastelands, so unfunny
S92 and Newfoundland crash threads.
Thanks, looking at them now, sincerest condolences to all those involved.
Plenty of S92 pilots still singing it's praises though; Any BoE report out yet?
Also:
BERLIN, Feb. 25 (UPI) -- The German armed forces are testing 13 new NH90 helicopters and they are not amused.
An internal military report, leaked to German mass daily Bild, blasted the many shortcomings of the multi-purpose helicopter developed and built by Eurocopter daughter NHIndustries. The 103-page report goes as far as recommending using alternative aircraft in operational scenarios.
Germany has ordered 122 NH90 for the army and the air force for around $6.2 billion but the testing of the pre-serial model revealed several deficiencies.
1.Clearance is so limited that soldiers have trouble getting in and out of the helicopter
2. the rear ramp is too weak to support fully equipped soldiers
3. the plane's floor is so sensitive that it can be cracked by boots
4.the seats are unable to accommodate more than 240 pounds. The fact that modern infantry equipment weighs 55 pounds means that larger and more muscular soldiers will have to stay out.
If true, they didn't learn from the 'Merlin'; Wastelands, so unfunny
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tramps,
I personally like the idea that the Yanks have come up with (also mentioned on PPruNe somewhere), that is to take a 100 plus S-61T aircraft and re-engineer them to some sort of "Carson" build state. This is to address the shortfall in their medium lift capability worldwide. I seem to remember a whole load of Seaking airframes sat at Sultan!!
Cheers
I personally like the idea that the Yanks have come up with (also mentioned on PPruNe somewhere), that is to take a 100 plus S-61T aircraft and re-engineer them to some sort of "Carson" build state. This is to address the shortfall in their medium lift capability worldwide. I seem to remember a whole load of Seaking airframes sat at Sultan!!
Cheers