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For those who get hot under the collar on these issues Rudyard Kipling had something to offer. I will quote from memory, so may not be word perfect.
Now it is not good for the Christians health to hassle the Aryan brown.
For the Christian riles and the Aryan smiles, and it weareth the Christian down.
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
And an epitaph drear "A fool lies here who tried to hassle the East".
A 21st century interpretation; those who get riled over the inconsequential are the ones who are most likely to get heart attacks and expire. Ask yourself is it really worth the increase in blood pressure?
Now it is not good for the Christians health to hassle the Aryan brown.
For the Christian riles and the Aryan smiles, and it weareth the Christian down.
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
And an epitaph drear "A fool lies here who tried to hassle the East".
A 21st century interpretation; those who get riled over the inconsequential are the ones who are most likely to get heart attacks and expire. Ask yourself is it really worth the increase in blood pressure?
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I don't care. I really don't. Who does in this day and age?
It may take a little longer for some others to get used to it though. Give them a break, they aren't bad people, just typical of a largely decent part of the demographic who join up with good traditional values who want to do the right thing for our country. The playing rules have changed and in 15 years this won't be a conversation, but the rules changed mid game and so some will call foul.
I just personally don't care. I'm not attracted to every female servicewoman and use the the same premise to assume that I'm not irresistible to every gay geezer who joins up. And if I were, what a complement.
I don't care.
It may take a little longer for some others to get used to it though. Give them a break, they aren't bad people, just typical of a largely decent part of the demographic who join up with good traditional values who want to do the right thing for our country. The playing rules have changed and in 15 years this won't be a conversation, but the rules changed mid game and so some will call foul.
I just personally don't care. I'm not attracted to every female servicewoman and use the the same premise to assume that I'm not irresistible to every gay geezer who joins up. And if I were, what a complement.
I don't care.
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Well said 1771 Delete, whilst I'm pleased that the RAF has made progress on the subject of Equal Ops, I too believe that there are much, much more important issues that AMP should be commenting on that affect all of his 'employees'. How is it that we get a 3 yr pay-freeze, promotion is frozen, we lose trades, aircraft and people, income tax goes up, redundancy terms are slashed, pensions are changed, allowances are cut, MQ charges go up and AMP is completely silent?!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I see I managed to get under Really Annoyed skin.
I would not normally re-post a private message but this one is too good;
The T, as of course Alison recognised, is the missing letter from the acronym or abbreviation which should have been LGBT.
If anyone is a silly fool it isn't me, old yes but fool I don't think so.
I would not normally re-post a private message but this one is too good;
T? What are you on about you silly old fool? Are you one of these bigoted homophobes as well?
If anyone is a silly fool it isn't me, old yes but fool I don't think so.
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It isn't the fact that there are gay, lesbian, bi and trans-gender members within the RAF that is pi$$ing people off it is that it is encouraged by some senior officers so that the RAF gets this sort of 'recognition' and they get themselves noticed for promotion!!
When personnel are struggling to get T&S to go on professional courses or attend important meetings but LGBT personnel are almost pushed into attending Gay Pride parades (as a duty in uniform) and conferences, with all the T&S possible thrown at them, it is the inequality of it all that angers the straight members of the RAF.
It is about time that the LGBT community behave in the way they want the rest of us to treat them... If they want to be treated like any other member of society, then they should start acting like it. WE don't have Straight Pride marches (if we did then I bet the RAF wouldn't allow personnel to attend on duty, let alone encourage them to!) or hold conferences/seminars about being straight, so why should the LGBT community want to whilst wanting to be treated the same as us at the same time?
I worked with known gay and lesbian members of the RAF and quite probably bi (no idea about trans-gender though) and had no problems with them at all, so the idea that because we dare to speak out about these 'dubious' honour means that we are homophobic is pure B-S. Yes there will be some homophobes amongst the PPRuNe community, after all we are just human like the rest of society and therefore have members from all walks of life and all political and social viewpoints, but not everyone posting here against the promotion of LGBT in the RAF are homophobic.
MadMark!!!
When personnel are struggling to get T&S to go on professional courses or attend important meetings but LGBT personnel are almost pushed into attending Gay Pride parades (as a duty in uniform) and conferences, with all the T&S possible thrown at them, it is the inequality of it all that angers the straight members of the RAF.
It is about time that the LGBT community behave in the way they want the rest of us to treat them... If they want to be treated like any other member of society, then they should start acting like it. WE don't have Straight Pride marches (if we did then I bet the RAF wouldn't allow personnel to attend on duty, let alone encourage them to!) or hold conferences/seminars about being straight, so why should the LGBT community want to whilst wanting to be treated the same as us at the same time?
I worked with known gay and lesbian members of the RAF and quite probably bi (no idea about trans-gender though) and had no problems with them at all, so the idea that because we dare to speak out about these 'dubious' honour means that we are homophobic is pure B-S. Yes there will be some homophobes amongst the PPRuNe community, after all we are just human like the rest of society and therefore have members from all walks of life and all political and social viewpoints, but not everyone posting here against the promotion of LGBT in the RAF are homophobic.
MadMark!!!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
MM, there is, or was, no reason for it not to be a SLGBT conference which would then have been open and enlightening to everyone. In fact I am sure that would have been true in practice if not publicised as such.
But MMs point is that if it were a SLGBT conference then he doubts that S people, as opposed to LGBT, would have been positively encouraged by the RAF, given time off, and funded to hilt, to attend, along with subsequent publicity....and I think he would be right!!
MM is talking about the kind of backlash and unintended consequences that positive discrimination applied to small minority groups can often generate.
There is no reason why minorities of whatever kind cannot be equal with the mainstream, but when that balance tips over so that they recieve preferential treatment....?? All that happens is that a positive, as opposed to negative, bias is created - the problem has not gone away, but its nature has been changed. Resentments, tensions, etc, will still exist.
What was it George Orwell wrote, "...all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others...."
MM is talking about the kind of backlash and unintended consequences that positive discrimination applied to small minority groups can often generate.
There is no reason why minorities of whatever kind cannot be equal with the mainstream, but when that balance tips over so that they recieve preferential treatment....?? All that happens is that a positive, as opposed to negative, bias is created - the problem has not gone away, but its nature has been changed. Resentments, tensions, etc, will still exist.
What was it George Orwell wrote, "...all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others...."
May I Suggest ..........
........... that part of the problem is the uncompromising and aggressive tactics of Stonewall. That is the mantra: "if you're not for us, you must be against us".
It follows that if the RAF hierarchy does not make a song and dance about this and merely accepts that the LGBT 'label' is a non issue, Stonewall will take this to be damning with faint praise and try to show the service as being homophobic.
My message to the RAF top brass and to Stonewall is this:
IT'S NOT AN ISSUE - GET IT!!
As has been posted elsewhere, the armed forces have many complex issues affecting their personnel and these impact on the whole uniformed and civilian populations, not just a particularly group. Concentrate on the main issues - AMP and Air Sec.
Old Duffer
It follows that if the RAF hierarchy does not make a song and dance about this and merely accepts that the LGBT 'label' is a non issue, Stonewall will take this to be damning with faint praise and try to show the service as being homophobic.
My message to the RAF top brass and to Stonewall is this:
IT'S NOT AN ISSUE - GET IT!!
As has been posted elsewhere, the armed forces have many complex issues affecting their personnel and these impact on the whole uniformed and civilian populations, not just a particularly group. Concentrate on the main issues - AMP and Air Sec.
Old Duffer
Its all a matter of how the likes of AMP perceive public atitudes. They are deeply concerned with getting on the right side of people whom one would not ordinarily associate with anything military, perhaps with a view to wider political/public sympathy. Someone said something earlier about maintaining good tradition and simply wishing to serve. Officially puffing one's chest up, so to speak, over something which truth be known the R.A.F. like the other services, have been compelled to accept, is doubtless, against the service chiefs' natural instincts I'm sure. Their more natural inclinations toward what kind image a traditional military force should have, will differ wildly from this kind of anything goes image, more in keeping with a Bar on the banks of the Achterburg Val.
FB
FB
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Stonewall is an industry. They are elected by no-one and represent no-one. Their biggest activities are eating public funds, giving each other highly paid sinecures, 'finding' problems where there are none to justify their existence and, above all, taking credit for the advancement of the acceptance of gay people in the UK. In fact that acceptance has come about because there can hardly be an extended family left in the country without an openly gay member and/or there can't be many folk under the age of 60 without an openly gay friend.
Stonewall did some good work when it started out as a campaign group. When it became a self-justifying industry from about 1994 onwards its main aim was to preserve the ghetto as there was a real danger that sexual orientation discrimination law and practice would be subsumed into the ambit of the Equal Opportunities Commission and the legal apartheid for gay folk would disappear altogether (legally they would just be people, male and female). It was expensively assisted in this by the MoD.
It's therefore fitting that the MoD has signed up to its pish and even pays for it. I agree wholeheartedly with Old Duffer. I am in no doubt that the activities are wholly counter productive and play to a vocal (very small) minority of the gay folk currently in the Service, just as it's a very small minority of the gay folk in the country that go to pride parades. However, if the Service is stupid enough to give them warrants and rates to go to pissups at pride and 'conferences' then I don't blame them for filling their boots. I know some of you think it's unnatural, but the definition of being gay is that it comes natually to you if you are; WTF there is to confer about eludes me!
Stonewall certainly doesn't represent civvy gay folk or even a majority of them. Likewise, I imagine most Service gay folk would rather just be left to get on with their jobs and lives without all the box-ticking and PC BS Bingo.
Stonewall did some good work when it started out as a campaign group. When it became a self-justifying industry from about 1994 onwards its main aim was to preserve the ghetto as there was a real danger that sexual orientation discrimination law and practice would be subsumed into the ambit of the Equal Opportunities Commission and the legal apartheid for gay folk would disappear altogether (legally they would just be people, male and female). It was expensively assisted in this by the MoD.
It's therefore fitting that the MoD has signed up to its pish and even pays for it. I agree wholeheartedly with Old Duffer. I am in no doubt that the activities are wholly counter productive and play to a vocal (very small) minority of the gay folk currently in the Service, just as it's a very small minority of the gay folk in the country that go to pride parades. However, if the Service is stupid enough to give them warrants and rates to go to pissups at pride and 'conferences' then I don't blame them for filling their boots. I know some of you think it's unnatural, but the definition of being gay is that it comes natually to you if you are; WTF there is to confer about eludes me!
Stonewall certainly doesn't represent civvy gay folk or even a majority of them. Likewise, I imagine most Service gay folk would rather just be left to get on with their jobs and lives without all the box-ticking and PC BS Bingo.
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Sex change ex-fireman marries Jamaican Lesbian
So come on chaps, it could be worse. At least he/she/whatever wasn't ex- Royal Air Force.
So come on chaps, it could be worse. At least he/she/whatever wasn't ex- Royal Air Force.
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Whatever floats your boat.
She really does just look like a bloke in a dress though. Am I allowed to say that? I mean, it's true, and the lgbt stuff doesn't bother me at all, it's just that........... She really, really looks like a bloke in a dress.
On a serious note, there was a RAF News front page spread a while ago with pictures of the first RAF gay wedding - or something like that. There's the positive discrimination that does annoy personnel. I heard many disparaging comments on the lines of,"My wedding didn't make the paper, why should theirs." etc. I was a bit more upset that the combat death(s) of one or more personnel was pushed off the front page by this momentous event, it seemed extremely disrespectful.
She really does just look like a bloke in a dress though. Am I allowed to say that? I mean, it's true, and the lgbt stuff doesn't bother me at all, it's just that........... She really, really looks like a bloke in a dress.
On a serious note, there was a RAF News front page spread a while ago with pictures of the first RAF gay wedding - or something like that. There's the positive discrimination that does annoy personnel. I heard many disparaging comments on the lines of,"My wedding didn't make the paper, why should theirs." etc. I was a bit more upset that the combat death(s) of one or more personnel was pushed off the front page by this momentous event, it seemed extremely disrespectful.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Biggus, you are right of course. The one could not have been refused and the other would have taken some persuading. I admit when the first one happened I was tempted to apply just to see my boss's (a Lt Col) face.
He would have been as nice as pie to your face (maybe) but you should have heard what he said in confidence of those he didn't like.
He would have been as nice as pie to your face (maybe) but you should have heard what he said in confidence of those he didn't like.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Digressing slightly, before the LGBT issue the other no-no was the pregnant WRAF - an oxymoron really.
Now there are many single parents often with no man in sight. What's the form? Can you ask who was the Dad or was it after that dining-in night?
Now there are many single parents often with no man in sight. What's the form? Can you ask who was the Dad or was it after that dining-in night?
They are deeply concerned with getting on the right side of people whom one would not ordinarily associate with anything military,
Alexander the Great?
Julius Caesar?
Richard the Lionheart?
Lawrence of Arabia?
Skill at interior decorating? A fondness for Judy Garland records? Good colour co-ordination?
Not military prowess of the highest level, then?
TTN,
You forgot Lord Kitchener
but - IT'S NOT AN ISSUE
If you want a real issue to bang on about try: Closer military links with the French.
When I looked after Her Majesty's Jaguar fleet, the duplicitous French were trying to flog the Mirage, whilst supposedly supporting us selling the Jaguar. Nice people individually - not to be trusted collectively!!
O-D
You forgot Lord Kitchener
but - IT'S NOT AN ISSUE
If you want a real issue to bang on about try: Closer military links with the French.
When I looked after Her Majesty's Jaguar fleet, the duplicitous French were trying to flog the Mirage, whilst supposedly supporting us selling the Jaguar. Nice people individually - not to be trusted collectively!!
O-D