Nimrod MRA4 Being Broken Up
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Five Nimrod-sized hangars at Cosford, and all empty last time I was there. Ditto many RAF airfields all over the place. In spite of what is spouted at us flying the completed airframes there would have cost nothing, and they could have been left there for as long as needed. What on earth the Americans would say about this I don't know - all their airframes are stored in the desert until museum keepers start hunting them in packs.
I'm absolutely a Conservative to the core but I am afraid that in my eyes Cameron is now a complete t--t. What the hell sort of country builds a fleet of aircraft for £4bn then scraps them because some damn politicians decides we don't have the money to run them!
What about the Sentinel? Came in under budget, world leading aircraft, but being sold (or on current form, turned in to beer cans) by 2015, after seven years. Incredible.
Seeing Cameron repeating again and again about "Cats and traps" for the new QE class carriers during PMQs was the only time I have actually confronted the TV with physical violence. Thinks he can make himself look like an expert by spouting some slang he's picked up from the Yanks, probably thinks he's Tom-bloody-Cruise. To me, he has proved himself completely unfit to lead.
I'm absolutely a Conservative to the core but I am afraid that in my eyes Cameron is now a complete t--t. What the hell sort of country builds a fleet of aircraft for £4bn then scraps them because some damn politicians decides we don't have the money to run them!
What about the Sentinel? Came in under budget, world leading aircraft, but being sold (or on current form, turned in to beer cans) by 2015, after seven years. Incredible.
Seeing Cameron repeating again and again about "Cats and traps" for the new QE class carriers during PMQs was the only time I have actually confronted the TV with physical violence. Thinks he can make himself look like an expert by spouting some slang he's picked up from the Yanks, probably thinks he's Tom-bloody-Cruise. To me, he has proved himself completely unfit to lead.
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The electronic kit onboard was Boeing developed? Isn't it basically the same kit in the P-8?
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I'm absolutely a Conservative to the core but I am afraid that in my eyes Cameron is now a complete t--t. What the hell sort of country builds a fleet of aircraft for £4bn then scraps them because some damn politicians decides we don't have the money to run them!
Come on David you claim to be the listening party
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Europaflyer
To me, he has proved himself completely unfit to lead
The final straw was Liam Fox spouting total boll*cks on the news this evening.
I've copied across a post I placed on another thread earlier today.
End of an Era
We gather in these hallowed halls and remember times now past.
The laughs we shared, and the gallant deeds; but now the die is cast.
For the MOD and Air Command and a government coalition,
Has axed our fleet and closed our base, but will rue this daft decision.
The laughs we shared, and the gallant deeds; but now the die is cast.
For the MOD and Air Command and a government coalition,
Has axed our fleet and closed our base, but will rue this daft decision.
For it makes no sense to us at all, for on this island nation.
No long range airborne maritime force is a military abomination.
But we should not lie and lick our wounds, and fade into the night.
For what Kinloss now needs of us, that we may serve her right.
No long range airborne maritime force is a military abomination.
But we should not lie and lick our wounds, and fade into the night.
For what Kinloss now needs of us, that we may serve her right.
Is to celebrate her glorious past, and all that we’ve endured.
For overland, and over seas we kept this land secured.
And remember all of those who came, and ran with us this course,
All those who served and those who died, with honour on this force.
For overland, and over seas we kept this land secured.
And remember all of those who came, and ran with us this course,
All those who served and those who died, with honour on this force.
Though politics and budgets cuts have torn this fleet asunder,
We’ll fondly bid farewell Kinloss, and to the mighty hunter.
And tirelessly we’ll work away, with emotional reserves.
To close her down with dignity; it’s the least that she deserves.
We’ll fondly bid farewell Kinloss, and to the mighty hunter.
And tirelessly we’ll work away, with emotional reserves.
To close her down with dignity; it’s the least that she deserves.
The die is cast; the decision made; twas others who sealed our fate.
They’ll come to rue their big mistake, but sadly all too late.
So we’ll say to those in their ivory towers, who presided o’er this farce.
Ye can take yer Strategic Defence Review and shove it up yer *rse.
They’ll come to rue their big mistake, but sadly all too late.
So we’ll say to those in their ivory towers, who presided o’er this farce.
Ye can take yer Strategic Defence Review and shove it up yer *rse.
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GB Govt likes an overspend, look at Concorde.
Eurofighter Typhoon was another good one. A product of the Cold War era that entered service many years behind schedule.
Jobs at BAe seem to be the main reason these projects endured.
Think of the billions that could have been saved by buying military hardware from the USA from the outset.
We seemed to get stuck in the post war mentality that Britain led the World in jet aviation (we gave all our research info to the US for free after WWII). I'm sorry but the Boeing 707 changed all that after the Comet failed.
Oh, isn't the Nimrod a Comet clone?
QED.
Eurofighter Typhoon was another good one. A product of the Cold War era that entered service many years behind schedule.
Jobs at BAe seem to be the main reason these projects endured.
Think of the billions that could have been saved by buying military hardware from the USA from the outset.
We seemed to get stuck in the post war mentality that Britain led the World in jet aviation (we gave all our research info to the US for free after WWII). I'm sorry but the Boeing 707 changed all that after the Comet failed.
Oh, isn't the Nimrod a Comet clone?
QED.
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You heard it here first
Come on folks - the reason for the senior outburst now is clear - this is capitalising on the emotional reaction of seeing beautiful jets being shredded to fire the first shots of the 'Buy us some P8s soon' campaign.
And dont worry airborne boys and girls, the P8s will be exactly to spec (as the spec will be 'I want one of those'), exactly on time, and very very cheap to buy and operate, being from the good ol US of A from where everything that flies is perfect.
(By the way, despite some touchiness above - those pictures and some of the allegations are hard to take from my side of the table - I do believe that if the RAF does get some, within a couple of years the performance will knock the spots off anything that the Yanks can deliver, given my experience of the UK maritime community)
And dont worry airborne boys and girls, the P8s will be exactly to spec (as the spec will be 'I want one of those'), exactly on time, and very very cheap to buy and operate, being from the good ol US of A from where everything that flies is perfect.
(By the way, despite some touchiness above - those pictures and some of the allegations are hard to take from my side of the table - I do believe that if the RAF does get some, within a couple of years the performance will knock the spots off anything that the Yanks can deliver, given my experience of the UK maritime community)
Very very sad.
An embarrassing day for the UK.
Somehow the link below compliments it. Is this the future?
Canadian woman is world's first Beatles graduate | Music | guardian.co.uk
An embarrassing day for the UK.
Somehow the link below compliments it. Is this the future?
Canadian woman is world's first Beatles graduate | Music | guardian.co.uk
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Originally Posted by RumPunch
I cannot believe that only now 6 former defence cheifs have condemed this decision.
They also manage to agree to scrap newer (brand new in this case) airframes and keep the older knackered ones in service way beyond the ideal. I remember war stock Landrovers and trucks being dumped on the market when units were struggling with ancient Series IIIs.
Next time a requirement for a new aircraft, ship, or vehicle comes along perhaps it will not have a million and one other requirements drafted on the side and in so doing dooming the project to failure. If you have a requirement and the other chap's project won't fit then get your own project and if we can't afford both then cut one completely.
It's not nice, but until a CDS mans up enough to force some common sense then nothing is going to change. Perhaps a poster could be made up with the wreckage of the MRA4s surrounded by the mug shots of the magnificent six and distributed to all IPTs.
or put another way .....
Question
What the hell sort of country builds a fleet of aircraft for £4bn then scraps them because some damn politicians decides we don't have the money to run them!
Answer
Probably the same people who have to work day to day with a bunch of service personnel who think the taxpayer is a bottomless pit for their decades late, billions over budget glory projects ?
1. the aircraft has yet to fly effectively - its removal is not creating a gap, its failing to fill one which the service appears to be quite happy having for the last decade while ir prevaricates and messes around.
2. It was a project based upon reuse of failed bits, adding more unproven bits and generally wasting billions by building upon failure after failure. By scrapping it fully, we prevent the future creation of the next failure, the Nimrod 5 which would the RAF's next late project.
3. the RAF should look to itself for the failure. If they had delivered to time and budget and not kept messing around, they would have had their toys by now. Its difficult to justify billions and billions of overspend money being wasted to keep Nimrod going when history suggest that the RAF cannot be trusted to get the project off the ground. Meanwhile soldiers on the ground are dying due to lack of appropriate vehicles. Which do you spend money on - vehicles which will clearly save lives, or spend it on more delays on Nimrod. Its a no brainer.
Sorry RAF chaps, we taxpayers are now holding you to account and are taking away the chequebook. Like a naughty child who gorges himself on sweets until sick, you are going on a diet and are going to have to live within our means. That means you don't get 100% of your desired capability for an extra 10 years delay and billions over budget. Learn to live within your means.
What the hell sort of country builds a fleet of aircraft for £4bn then scraps them because some damn politicians decides we don't have the money to run them!
Answer
Probably the same people who have to work day to day with a bunch of service personnel who think the taxpayer is a bottomless pit for their decades late, billions over budget glory projects ?
1. the aircraft has yet to fly effectively - its removal is not creating a gap, its failing to fill one which the service appears to be quite happy having for the last decade while ir prevaricates and messes around.
2. It was a project based upon reuse of failed bits, adding more unproven bits and generally wasting billions by building upon failure after failure. By scrapping it fully, we prevent the future creation of the next failure, the Nimrod 5 which would the RAF's next late project.
3. the RAF should look to itself for the failure. If they had delivered to time and budget and not kept messing around, they would have had their toys by now. Its difficult to justify billions and billions of overspend money being wasted to keep Nimrod going when history suggest that the RAF cannot be trusted to get the project off the ground. Meanwhile soldiers on the ground are dying due to lack of appropriate vehicles. Which do you spend money on - vehicles which will clearly save lives, or spend it on more delays on Nimrod. Its a no brainer.
Sorry RAF chaps, we taxpayers are now holding you to account and are taking away the chequebook. Like a naughty child who gorges himself on sweets until sick, you are going on a diet and are going to have to live within our means. That means you don't get 100% of your desired capability for an extra 10 years delay and billions over budget. Learn to live within your means.
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GrahamO......... sod it I can't be arsed!
Maybe you have a big chip on your shoulder for the RAF, you are a wind up merchant or that Page fella. I don't care; any conversation on the topic is irrelevant now anyway.
Maybe you have a big chip on your shoulder for the RAF, you are a wind up merchant or that Page fella. I don't care; any conversation on the topic is irrelevant now anyway.
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Is this an opportune time to ask what plans the prudent taxpayers have for their safe and cosy world when that nice Mr Putin takes over our great friend Russia again? Third of Russians want Vladimir Putin to return as president - Telegraph
Is it also a good time to ask them what their plans are for when China starts calling in the debts and has cornered the World market for essential minerals?
Being a generous chap, I shan't mention South America.
Is it also a good time to ask them what their plans are for when China starts calling in the debts and has cornered the World market for essential minerals?
Being a generous chap, I shan't mention South America.
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Cameron will be scrapping AWACS next, then the VC10 fleet so may as well outsource the whole Air Force.
This bloke is worse than Blair and he takes some beating......
Seperately, the Head of the Bank of England at a fancy banquet in his speech said "....some families will be much worse off over the next few months due to price rises around the country....."
Yar, pass the brandy old chap !! Hypocrites all of them.
This bloke is worse than Blair and he takes some beating......
Seperately, the Head of the Bank of England at a fancy banquet in his speech said "....some families will be much worse off over the next few months due to price rises around the country....."
Yar, pass the brandy old chap !! Hypocrites all of them.
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Another report had it that the aircraft's electronic task-fit was no longer up to much, given that it took no (or little) account of technological advances in electronics during the elephantine gestation time. This could have been one of those "whispers" I referred to in my earlier post (like the one about the TSR2's wing breaking on test -which it was meant to, but the whisperer in the PM's ear didn't mention that).
On the TSR2 wing thing, I've read recently that it failed much earlier than it should have done, a strengthened wing had to be designed, and even then BAC never knew exactly why the first wing had failed. That doesn't sound like "it was meant to" to me. I think TSR2 gets as much vociferous defence as MRA4 does, purely because those who know all the really serious faults aren't in a position to be laying out the details on a public forum. Perhaps in 30 years!
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GrahamO
Woodford Aerodrome
Chester Road
Woodford
Cheshire
SK7 1QR
United Kingdom
Here's the address for Woodford, take along your soap box and preach that to the guys when they finish shift. Just across the road from the security point should be OK, Stepping Hill A&E is around 12 minutes by ambulance........I could book you one in advance......drop me a PM with a time
Woodford Aerodrome
Chester Road
Woodford
Cheshire
SK7 1QR
United Kingdom
Here's the address for Woodford, take along your soap box and preach that to the guys when they finish shift. Just across the road from the security point should be OK, Stepping Hill A&E is around 12 minutes by ambulance........I could book you one in advance......drop me a PM with a time
Sure, I'll do that as soon as you turn up in every home in the country and explain why you and your colleagues have burned billions of pounds of investment to no gain.
FWIW I worked with the RAF on another white elephant called UNITER for about 10 years..... another project only worth half as billion, that was not quite ready before the UK didn't need it.
You cannot avoid the fact that Nimrod is 10 years late, billions over budget. Even Ford motor cars and the UAW are not that bad.
Claiming that the UK's interests are being damaged by a cancellation is understandable, but how much was our national interest damaged by the inability to get the platform working over a decade ?
Defining and purchasing stuff isn't really the strongpoint of any of the services.
FWIW I worked with the RAF on another white elephant called UNITER for about 10 years..... another project only worth half as billion, that was not quite ready before the UK didn't need it.
You cannot avoid the fact that Nimrod is 10 years late, billions over budget. Even Ford motor cars and the UAW are not that bad.
Claiming that the UK's interests are being damaged by a cancellation is understandable, but how much was our national interest damaged by the inability to get the platform working over a decade ?
Defining and purchasing stuff isn't really the strongpoint of any of the services.