New Falklands War Brewing
Good grief that was some Friday night on PPRuNe! Friday night obviously brings out the nutters, the fantasy merchants and the good old fashioned jingoistic rah rah flag wavers. Some of you people need to get a social life or get laid more on a Friday.
Perhaps certain 'contributors' would sate their warmongering lust better if they moved to some BNP website? Or perhaps just played 'BlowStuffUp' on-line computer games in their bedrooms with their likeminded folk?
Last edited by BEagle; 11th Feb 2012 at 19:22.
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Beagle & pr00ne,
Whilst you may see the postings on here as demonstrating a lust for war, I believe that the bullying, hectoring, threatening manner by the Argentinian government to be even more so. I do not see the comments on PPRuNe as being threatening in any way. I do see the current Argentinian policies with respect to the Falklands as being extremely dangerous. The Argentinians are warmongering. There is no other way of viewing what they are doing. The Argentinian declarations can no longer be considered to be aimed at being for internal consumption alone. For Chavez to then declare military support can only be considered more so. The postings on here are an interesting reaction to the Argentinians. It certainly allows me to gain an opinion of what certain people feel. No where have I seen anything of a BNP nature.
Have either of you written to the Argentinian government or to Venezuela complaining about their childish warmongering?
Whilst you may see the postings on here as demonstrating a lust for war, I believe that the bullying, hectoring, threatening manner by the Argentinian government to be even more so. I do not see the comments on PPRuNe as being threatening in any way. I do see the current Argentinian policies with respect to the Falklands as being extremely dangerous. The Argentinians are warmongering. There is no other way of viewing what they are doing. The Argentinian declarations can no longer be considered to be aimed at being for internal consumption alone. For Chavez to then declare military support can only be considered more so. The postings on here are an interesting reaction to the Argentinians. It certainly allows me to gain an opinion of what certain people feel. No where have I seen anything of a BNP nature.
Have either of you written to the Argentinian government or to Venezuela complaining about their childish warmongering?
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BNP???
I get the impression certain posters would sate their pro-appeasement views better if they posted on the CND website
The comments from of p00ne and Beagle would seem more in keeping with the voices of the old women who resided at the gates of Greenham Common
I get the impression certain posters would sate their pro-appeasement views better if they posted on the CND website
The comments from of p00ne and Beagle would seem more in keeping with the voices of the old women who resided at the gates of Greenham Common
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Hval:
There are always those that will stick their head in the sand and hope it all goes away. They are generally the ones that suddenly become shocked and disappointed after the thing they were hiding from actually happens...
There are always those that will stick their head in the sand and hope it all goes away. They are generally the ones that suddenly become shocked and disappointed after the thing they were hiding from actually happens...
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AA,
I have much respect and admiration for both pr00ne and for Beagle. Having said that I may not agree with pr00nes opinions often, but he is entitled to them. I do wish that they would not denigrate others. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
PPRune is a place where people are allowed to state their opinions and their beliefs. These may then be discussed, politely, and in a friendly manner hopefully.
I would rather people state their personal opinions on here rather than at work, where the outcomes for both them and the services might be somewhat different.
PPRuNe is, as far as I am concerned, a place for letting of steam, learning, chatting, joking and being serious.
For example, I feel that war went wrong when infernal flying machines were invented, and nothing can be as effective as a cavalry charge. In case I am wrong, I find PPRuNe a useful place to visit. I don't think I am wrong though.
I have much respect and admiration for both pr00ne and for Beagle. Having said that I may not agree with pr00nes opinions often, but he is entitled to them. I do wish that they would not denigrate others. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
PPRune is a place where people are allowed to state their opinions and their beliefs. These may then be discussed, politely, and in a friendly manner hopefully.
I would rather people state their personal opinions on here rather than at work, where the outcomes for both them and the services might be somewhat different.
PPRuNe is, as far as I am concerned, a place for letting of steam, learning, chatting, joking and being serious.
For example, I feel that war went wrong when infernal flying machines were invented, and nothing can be as effective as a cavalry charge. In case I am wrong, I find PPRuNe a useful place to visit. I don't think I am wrong though.
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Hval:
Sorry, but I lose patience with people who preach patience and diplomacy when someone is spoiling for a fight and make no preparation for that fight. When the fight starts it always takes many more men and resources to fix the problem. Many more people killed because some people would rather talk or do nothing than look aggressive.
Sorry, but I lose patience with people who preach patience and diplomacy when someone is spoiling for a fight and make no preparation for that fight. When the fight starts it always takes many more men and resources to fix the problem. Many more people killed because some people would rather talk or do nothing than look aggressive.
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AA,
I hope I am reading pr00ne and Beagle correctly when I write this, but I think that pr00ne believes that the Falklands shouldn't belong to us and that people should not be so jingoistic. I also believe that pr00ne believes there to be zero risk of an invasion.
Beagle seems to think that the level of discussion is pathetic; and that there will be no invasion (and thinking so is pathetic).
Beagle and pr00ne I hope that I have precised correctly your thoughts. My apologies if I have not.
I pray that they are correct. I do not believe that there will be a peaceful solution myself.
I hope I am reading pr00ne and Beagle correctly when I write this, but I think that pr00ne believes that the Falklands shouldn't belong to us and that people should not be so jingoistic. I also believe that pr00ne believes there to be zero risk of an invasion.
Beagle seems to think that the level of discussion is pathetic; and that there will be no invasion (and thinking so is pathetic).
Beagle and pr00ne I hope that I have precised correctly your thoughts. My apologies if I have not.
I pray that they are correct. I do not believe that there will be a peaceful solution myself.
It really goes to show how much the Argentines are clutching at straws. Obviously the compiler of the 'research' is into conspiracy theories. It is like the conspiracy loons that think High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) controls the weather and causes earthquakes. Is this the best that Argentine Military Intelligence can do?
The Argentine Foreign Minister points out the HF radar at 07:56 in the following video.
The HF radar is located at Goose Green.
Radar system in the Falklands to monitor the "Southern Lights"
The radar at Goose Green joins the SuperDARN network and the data is made available on the internet.
What is SuperDARN
More info at following link
SuperDARN: What is SuperDARN
There is also a SuperDARN radar in the Falklands that is funded by the US as part of the international project.
SuperDARN: Locations of Radars
Getting Data
SuperDARN: Getting Data
The Argentine Foreign Minister points out the HF radar at 07:56 in the following video.
The HF radar is located at Goose Green.
The Falklands radar is funded by the Natural Environment Research Council (NERC). The radar is collaboration between the University of Leicester which supplied the masts, and BAS, which provided the electronic equipment.
“The electronics come from a long-established BAS radar station which is currently being moved and rebuilt because it’s on an ice shelf which is slipping into the sea,” explains Dr Milan. “When the equipment came back to the UK for refurbishment, we realized that we could combine it with a spare set of antennas and temporarily establish a station on the Falklands.”
The radar station was built with the aid of engineers from Leicester and BAS over several weeks at the start of this year and went operational on 14 February. It is based at Goose Green, a remote community which was the site of a famous battle during the 1982 Falklands conflict.
“The electronics come from a long-established BAS radar station which is currently being moved and rebuilt because it’s on an ice shelf which is slipping into the sea,” explains Dr Milan. “When the equipment came back to the UK for refurbishment, we realized that we could combine it with a spare set of antennas and temporarily establish a station on the Falklands.”
The radar station was built with the aid of engineers from Leicester and BAS over several weeks at the start of this year and went operational on 14 February. It is based at Goose Green, a remote community which was the site of a famous battle during the 1982 Falklands conflict.
The radar at Goose Green joins the SuperDARN network and the data is made available on the internet.
What is SuperDARN
SuperDARN stands for Super Dual Auroral Radar Network. This network consists of over 20 radars operating on frequencies between 8 and 20 MHz and looking into the polar regions of the Earth. These radars can measure the position and velocity of charged particles in the Earth's ionosphere, the highest layer of the Earth's atmosphere.
Because the movements of these particles are tied to the movements of the Earth's magnetic field which, in turn, extends into space, SuperDARN data provides scientists with information regarding the Earth's interaction with the space environment.
SuperDARN is an international collaboration involving scientists and funding agencies of over a dozen countries ......
Because the movements of these particles are tied to the movements of the Earth's magnetic field which, in turn, extends into space, SuperDARN data provides scientists with information regarding the Earth's interaction with the space environment.
SuperDARN is an international collaboration involving scientists and funding agencies of over a dozen countries ......
SuperDARN: What is SuperDARN
There is also a SuperDARN radar in the Falklands that is funded by the US as part of the international project.
SuperDARN: Locations of Radars
Getting Data
SuperDARN: Getting Data
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I do not believe that there will be a peaceful solution myself.
As has been said already, I am sure no one on here wants a fight, but I and I am sure many others would like to see more of a response from the UK. It is highly likely that a "show of force" would go a long way towards cooling down the current situation, and persuade any would be aggressors that it would be a bad idea.
We had some idea last time around, that Argentina was planning something, but we failed to do anything significant, our inactivity was taken as an invitation to invade.
Better to do something now, and nip this thing in the bud early, make sure those with illegal ambitions do not get the wrong message, and think they could do it again.
We had some idea last time around, that Argentina was planning something, but we failed to do anything significant, our inactivity was taken as an invitation to invade.
Better to do something now, and nip this thing in the bud early, make sure those with illegal ambitions do not get the wrong message, and think they could do it again.
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hval post 545
hval, I dont agree. What I see is the opposite, the Arg know that invading is a little more tricky than last time, they wont have any UN backing if they do and theres a lot of oil they are trying to get their hands on.
They are using a lot of different resources to convince someone, the UN say, to try and convince the UK to come to the negotiating table.
It doesnt matter what I did before or what I do now, but from experience the way the UK might negotiate and the way LA negotiates are entirely different. If in a UK board room for example you ever use passion, you are unlikely to be taken seriously. Hard facts different matter. The opposite is true further south west.
pr00ne, I think I got that right. I think you need to relax a little first off, or maybe Im reading you too quickly.
Milo, are you really 92? If you are then I guess youve seen a lot of history repeting itself! And that perhaps we could learn something from your perspective!
They are using a lot of different resources to convince someone, the UN say, to try and convince the UK to come to the negotiating table.
It doesnt matter what I did before or what I do now, but from experience the way the UK might negotiate and the way LA negotiates are entirely different. If in a UK board room for example you ever use passion, you are unlikely to be taken seriously. Hard facts different matter. The opposite is true further south west.
pr00ne, I think I got that right. I think you need to relax a little first off, or maybe Im reading you too quickly.
Milo, are you really 92? If you are then I guess youve seen a lot of history repeting itself! And that perhaps we could learn something from your perspective!
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Evening Tangoe,
As I wrote a zillion (slight exaggeration - pages 17 and 20) posts ago, I think that the Argentinians are making a political attempt at taking ownership of the Falkland Islands. Unfortunately I believe that domestically they may have got themselves in to an increasing spiral of political talk that will eventually leave them with no option but to make an invasion attempt. The argentinians appear to be deliberately provocative to the British and make the British appear to be building up for war.
Very, very few people in Argentina appear to be trying to put the brakes on the Rhetoric. The Argentinian politicians may end up with no option but to invade. Since I wrote my thoughts there has been an increase in rhetoric.
As I wrote a zillion (slight exaggeration - pages 17 and 20) posts ago, I think that the Argentinians are making a political attempt at taking ownership of the Falkland Islands. Unfortunately I believe that domestically they may have got themselves in to an increasing spiral of political talk that will eventually leave them with no option but to make an invasion attempt. The argentinians appear to be deliberately provocative to the British and make the British appear to be building up for war.
Very, very few people in Argentina appear to be trying to put the brakes on the Rhetoric. The Argentinian politicians may end up with no option but to invade. Since I wrote my thoughts there has been an increase in rhetoric.
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The interesting thing about this whole thread is that it doesn't matter if hval is right or not, it's the fact that someone might try to take the Falklands by force.
Since there is someone out there "raising the stakes" it needs to be met with an appropriate response... Or we'll lose more men and women fixing the issue we ignored.
Since there is someone out there "raising the stakes" it needs to be met with an appropriate response... Or we'll lose more men and women fixing the issue we ignored.
Hval,
The Argentine government seems to be in that spiral as you described but they would soon lose what ever international support they have if they took offensive action. The UK could repel most forms of military attack however any 'show of force' by Britain - over and above what we've deployed would be read as overt aggression - which no one wants. Following the address given by their FORMIN last night, any 'aggressive' act by the UK would simply fit his narrative of the UK militarising the region. It's a matter of getting the balance right.
The UK has made it quite clear that the FI are non-negotiable; an internationally astute move would be for a referendum to be held amongst the locals. Although the outcome would be resoundingly supporting status quo ante, the domestic political damage to Cameron would be enormous. He would be accused of weakness, of caving in etc and it could prove fatal to the coalition government. Now there's an opportunity!
Seriously, I think the UK has pitched this about right. Proone - The FI are an anachronism, as are the Channel Islands and Gibraltar - but hey are British and want to remain so, so the Government is obliged to defend them.
The Argentine government seems to be in that spiral as you described but they would soon lose what ever international support they have if they took offensive action. The UK could repel most forms of military attack however any 'show of force' by Britain - over and above what we've deployed would be read as overt aggression - which no one wants. Following the address given by their FORMIN last night, any 'aggressive' act by the UK would simply fit his narrative of the UK militarising the region. It's a matter of getting the balance right.
The UK has made it quite clear that the FI are non-negotiable; an internationally astute move would be for a referendum to be held amongst the locals. Although the outcome would be resoundingly supporting status quo ante, the domestic political damage to Cameron would be enormous. He would be accused of weakness, of caving in etc and it could prove fatal to the coalition government. Now there's an opportunity!
Seriously, I think the UK has pitched this about right. Proone - The FI are an anachronism, as are the Channel Islands and Gibraltar - but hey are British and want to remain so, so the Government is obliged to defend them.
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Whenurhappy,
Valid points in your first paragraph. Problem is that if nothing is done and the Argentinians do invade successfully (discussions as to how this possibly might be done are also in this thread) The UK then has major issues internally & externally.
Your suggestion for a referendum is interesting. Cameron could off course mention that a referendum has already been held. Giving in to Political interference from an external country is not a good way to go. Having said that, how relevant is a referendum? The Argentinians themselves have said that the principle of self-determination was not applicable to the Falkland Islands on many occasions. The Argentinians have actually absolutely no right what so ever to the Falkland Islands. If we were to listen to that then the Argentinians would have to return Argentina to the Amerindians and depart; as would much of South America, The United States and elsewhere.
Why are the Falkland Islands, Gibralter, Guernsey and Jersey an anachronism? What makes them so? What is the relevance of place being adjacent to another. Should Germany and every other nation belong to someone else as they are adjacent to at least one other country?
Valid points in your first paragraph. Problem is that if nothing is done and the Argentinians do invade successfully (discussions as to how this possibly might be done are also in this thread) The UK then has major issues internally & externally.
Your suggestion for a referendum is interesting. Cameron could off course mention that a referendum has already been held. Giving in to Political interference from an external country is not a good way to go. Having said that, how relevant is a referendum? The Argentinians themselves have said that the principle of self-determination was not applicable to the Falkland Islands on many occasions. The Argentinians have actually absolutely no right what so ever to the Falkland Islands. If we were to listen to that then the Argentinians would have to return Argentina to the Amerindians and depart; as would much of South America, The United States and elsewhere.
Why are the Falkland Islands, Gibralter, Guernsey and Jersey an anachronism? What makes them so? What is the relevance of place being adjacent to another. Should Germany and every other nation belong to someone else as they are adjacent to at least one other country?
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The UK could repel most forms of military attack however any 'show of force' by Britain - over and above what we've deployed would be read as overt aggression
If you watch Timerman's rambling presentation, it is clear that he has painted the UK as the aggressor and South America the peace-lovers. An additional 'show of force' would simply be manna from heaven in his eyes (and presumably those of his government) and provide more 'substance' to the regional argument. As I have pointed out, the present disposition of British forces is more than adequate to protect our interests. Even with our forces so thinly spread, we still have global reach and could respond very rapidly if tensions spill over to conflict. None of the other country in the region have the range of military options that the UK has (TLAM, Stormshadow, SSN, C17s, combat hardened troops &c).
Overseas territories, by virtue of their origins and management are anachronistic in many governments' eyes (and amongst many of our colleagues in the FCO) but the UK is duty-bound to protect them and not use them as a bargaining chip as Brown tried to do with the Cyprus SBAs in 2008. Luckily for all concerned, that fell flat!
Overseas territories, by virtue of their origins and management are anachronistic in many governments' eyes (and amongst many of our colleagues in the FCO) but the UK is duty-bound to protect them and not use them as a bargaining chip as Brown tried to do with the Cyprus SBAs in 2008. Luckily for all concerned, that fell flat!
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Well, I think we need to make sure that we have sufficient capabilities in the area to be certain of dealing with any conventional or irregular attempts to invade the Islands or harass its inhabitants or flagged vessels. Whether we have that or not is a matter of debate and I don't feel qualified to pass comments (as mentioned earlier, my gut feeling is that it might be marginal... or perceived as marginal enough for somebody dumb enough to have a go).
We certainly don't need to be sending extra stuff there purely as a 'show of force' because frankly that just gives the Argentinian government political ammunition.
What we *do* need however is a more robust political response. I think it is disgusting that British subjects are currently lacking fresh produce because of Mercosur's refusal to allow FI flagged vessels to dock. It's not far off holding our people to ransom. It's bullying, pure and simple, and bullies who are allowed to have their way grow emboldened.
pb
We certainly don't need to be sending extra stuff there purely as a 'show of force' because frankly that just gives the Argentinian government political ammunition.
What we *do* need however is a more robust political response. I think it is disgusting that British subjects are currently lacking fresh produce because of Mercosur's refusal to allow FI flagged vessels to dock. It's not far off holding our people to ransom. It's bullying, pure and simple, and bullies who are allowed to have their way grow emboldened.
pb