Greatest ever blunder in the history of the UK aircraft industry?
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biggest mistake?
Supplying those jet engines to Russia in 1948
Without those the Russian jet development would have been delayed by at least ten years. No Korean War. No Vietnam war. No Badgers. No Bears. No Berlin Wall. No Cold War
Those bloody engines enabled the Russians to play catch-up so quickly that they became the threat they did.
But did we learn? Did we heck. So Wedgehead Benn allowed Hawker Siddeley to send the HS4000 high-power locomotive to Russia in the 1960's so they could copy that as well
Supplying those jet engines to Russia in 1948
Without those the Russian jet development would have been delayed by at least ten years. No Korean War. No Vietnam war. No Badgers. No Bears. No Berlin Wall. No Cold War
Those bloody engines enabled the Russians to play catch-up so quickly that they became the threat they did.
But did we learn? Did we heck. So Wedgehead Benn allowed Hawker Siddeley to send the HS4000 high-power locomotive to Russia in the 1960's so they could copy that as well
Last edited by jamesdevice; 30th Jun 2011 at 22:37.
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"biggest mistake?
Supplying those jet engines to Russia in 1948
Without those the Russian jet fighters would have been delayed by at least ten years. No Korean War. No Vietnam war. No Badgers. No Bears. No Berlin Wall. No Cold War
Those bloody engines enabled the Russians to play catch-up so quickly that they became the threat they did."
I never knew that. Just did some research, what a stupid thing to do and then the allies were surprised at the performance of the MIG in Korea !!!
Supplying those jet engines to Russia in 1948
Without those the Russian jet fighters would have been delayed by at least ten years. No Korean War. No Vietnam war. No Badgers. No Bears. No Berlin Wall. No Cold War
Those bloody engines enabled the Russians to play catch-up so quickly that they became the threat they did."
I never knew that. Just did some research, what a stupid thing to do and then the allies were surprised at the performance of the MIG in Korea !!!
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Labour government of course.
Both times. One has to wonder just how much the labour leaders of the 1940's -50's -60's really were in the communists pockets
Both times. One has to wonder just how much the labour leaders of the 1940's -50's -60's really were in the communists pockets
Last edited by jamesdevice; 1st Jul 2011 at 00:29.
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Britain's world-leading jet engine technology was also gifted to the USA during WW2, enabling General Electric to become the giant that it is today.
Air Commodore Sir Frank Whittle (naturally, a Halton Apprentice) never really got the rewards that he deserved for his work; Britain has a long & glorious history of invention which is only truly brought to fruition by other nations. At the root of all this lies a national malaise, suspicion & ambivilence towards innovation, strongly rooted in governments of various hues; bring on Mr Dyson, I say.
On the subject of the aforementioned purveyor of domestic vacuum contraptions, I was recently party to a conversation where an account was related regarding the accidental spillage of the contents of a Cremation urn. It would seem that a vacuum cleaner was utilised to recover the granular remains of the dearly departed. I could not resist enquiring if this amounted to "Dyson with death"..........
Profound apologies to all...........have a good weekend chaps
HB
Air Commodore Sir Frank Whittle (naturally, a Halton Apprentice) never really got the rewards that he deserved for his work; Britain has a long & glorious history of invention which is only truly brought to fruition by other nations. At the root of all this lies a national malaise, suspicion & ambivilence towards innovation, strongly rooted in governments of various hues; bring on Mr Dyson, I say.
On the subject of the aforementioned purveyor of domestic vacuum contraptions, I was recently party to a conversation where an account was related regarding the accidental spillage of the contents of a Cremation urn. It would seem that a vacuum cleaner was utilised to recover the granular remains of the dearly departed. I could not resist enquiring if this amounted to "Dyson with death"..........
Profound apologies to all...........have a good weekend chaps
HB
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"And there was me thinking that the Bear was a turbo-prop"
Once you have the basic compressor design concepts in hand, it doesn't take much more to add in a power shaft
Besides which, I've seen more than one reference (though as ever I can't remember where) that besides the Nenes RR also shipped a turboshaft (early Dart maybe?)
Once you have the basic compressor design concepts in hand, it doesn't take much more to add in a power shaft
Besides which, I've seen more than one reference (though as ever I can't remember where) that besides the Nenes RR also shipped a turboshaft (early Dart maybe?)
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They are all Gas Turbine engines, regardless of whether they produce a hat-removing blast of hot air, or turn a Leading Edge Cooling Fan (these devices will remove both head & hat).
Any further questions on the back of a 20GBP note please.
HB
Any further questions on the back of a 20GBP note please.
HB
wheezing piece of sidevalve junk blessed with 36 bhp
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Britain's world-leading jet engine technology was also gifted to the USA during WW2, enabling General Electric to become the giant that it is today.
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I find it hard to believe that the hissing, wheezing piece of sidevalve junk blessed with 36 bhp when new, capable of propelling my 100E Anglebox from 0-60 in 29.7 seconds of frenzied mechanical stress, was ever in the same league regarding tolerances as a Rolls Royce Merlin
"It took a or year so (to re-draw the 'prints), but it was enormous success, because, once the great Ford factory at Manchester started production, Merlins came out like shelling peas at a rate of 400 per week. And very good engines they were too, yet I have never seen mention of this massive contribution which the Ford Motor Company made to the building up of our airforces." - Sir Stanley Hooker.
Not Much Of An Engineer is well worth reading.
Last edited by etsd0001; 2nd Jul 2011 at 13:15. Reason: Add missing word
OLD RED DAMASK
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When you think that Atlantis will be the last shuttle mission, and the Americans will now have to pay the Russians a fee of £50M per astronaut.
Look back, a Brit invented HOTOL, this technology because of UK government lack of interest was sold to America. They aren't using it, we could have been charging them to get into space.
Look back, a Brit invented HOTOL, this technology because of UK government lack of interest was sold to America. They aren't using it, we could have been charging them to get into space.
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Its been alluded to before, but one of the biggest mistakes was the inability to get management in British Industry (not just the aircraft industry) to plan properly and make sense of production
Take an example of my mother. During the war she riveted together the majority of the starboard-side inner wing boxes for Spitfires built at Westlands. Her bridesmaid assembled the port-side boxes. My mother went off ill for three weeks (an ulcer). When she got back she was faced with a pile of boxes to build. No-one else had been detailed to take her place. There was a three week backlog of part-assembled Spitfires awaiting starboard wings, despite the urgency.
THAT mindset, THAT lack of planning resource was one of the major failings in UK industry
Take an example of my mother. During the war she riveted together the majority of the starboard-side inner wing boxes for Spitfires built at Westlands. Her bridesmaid assembled the port-side boxes. My mother went off ill for three weeks (an ulcer). When she got back she was faced with a pile of boxes to build. No-one else had been detailed to take her place. There was a three week backlog of part-assembled Spitfires awaiting starboard wings, despite the urgency.
THAT mindset, THAT lack of planning resource was one of the major failings in UK industry
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Bubbling along in a shed somewhere...
Reaction Engines Ltd : Space Propulsion Systems
Skylon (spacecraft) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BBC News - UK Skylon spaceplane passes key review
Reminds me (a bit) of the Avro 730. If nothing else it shows aerodynamics were quite well understood way back when.
Reaction Engines Ltd : Space Propulsion Systems
Skylon (spacecraft) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BBC News - UK Skylon spaceplane passes key review
Reminds me (a bit) of the Avro 730. If nothing else it shows aerodynamics were quite well understood way back when.
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Originally Posted by JamesDevice
biggest mistake?
Supplying those jet engines to Russia in 1948
Without those the Russian jet development would have been delayed by at least ten years. No Korean War. No Vietnam war. No Badgers. No Bears. No Berlin Wall. No Cold War
Supplying those jet engines to Russia in 1948
Without those the Russian jet development would have been delayed by at least ten years. No Korean War. No Vietnam war. No Badgers. No Bears. No Berlin Wall. No Cold War
However, sourcing a few engines is one thing, actually manufacturing the things is quite another. They managed to build ICBMs and manned launchers, do we attribute all that to the fact they scooped up a few Nazi V2s?
In fact, one might make the case that if the Russians had not been given a few of those 'agricultural' Nenes they'd have been forced to develop the axial compressor designs that they'd found in Germany. Which would have put them still further ahead.
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And just to show it's not just the post war British.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/bu...l/18plane.html
As Lenin put it, 'The capitalists will sell us the rope we hang them with."
A prototype of the C919 jet that China’s state-owned aircraft maker hopes to begin delivering in 2016. G.E. has been chosen to supply the engines.
As Lenin put it, 'The capitalists will sell us the rope we hang them with."
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Jetex_Jim: As I have read the history on the Nene sale, it was RR who received the initial request from the Russians.
They, RR, were keen to sell but they had to gain approval from the labour government before doing so.
They, RR, were keen to sell but they had to gain approval from the labour government before doing so.
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I'm not sure of the aircraft type but the late great Neil Williams wrote on his test report "entry to the cockpit is difficult. It should be made impossible"!
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it was RR who received the initial request from the Russians.
They, RR, were keen to sell but they had to gain approval from the labour government before doing so.
They, RR, were keen to sell but they had to gain approval from the labour government before doing so.
With Sir Stafford Cripps, at the Board of Trade, the left wing British Government appeared perfectly happy to sell out latest engine to the Russians, and in September 1946 clinched a deal for 25 Nenes & 30 Derwents, the first few of which the (the visiting Russian) team took back to the Soviet Union and copied exactly in double quick time.............
On my first visit to China in 1972 I was taken to the Peking Aeronautical Institute where they have a display of aero engines. Right in the fore front was a sectioned Nene engine of which, of course, the Chinese knew I was Chief Engineer. I inspected the engine carefully and said 'Yes, the Russians made a very good copy. They even copied the mistakes!'