MR2 MAD circle flying

[Jig Peter]

"Yawed like a whore"

@ Pontious

Was that "whorelike yawing" the reason the MRA4 got all those bits* added to the back end - I don't think any other aircraft, except a small twin from Beech ever had so many "fixes", which showed there was "summat odd aft". "If it looks right ..." and Vicky Verky.

* Fin extended uppards and forrards, "sticky-up bits" added to the tailplane ...

PS- Apologies for the tech speak ...

[Shack37]

Some pilots like to do the Mad Comp at the end of a sortie. Never bothered me but she certainly yawed like a whore.

Some pilots like to do the Mad Comp at the end of a sortie. Never bothered me but she certainly yawNed like a whore.

So I've heard

[Pontius Navigator]

Jig,

I came from the V-force and thought I might try my hand at some proper astro. First the sun gun was b****y useless compared with the Mk2 Peri, OK, it was supposed to be more accurate in azimuth for correcting the IN - that says something about the Mk 1, but it had no decent hand grips.

Then I briefed the pilots on the niceties of monitoring heading and speed changes. Having been used to speed changes of a knot or so and heading changes of no more than 0.2 degrees the best the Mk 1 could achieve was about 1.8 degrees in a minute.

It was such a rotten astro platform that for the rest of my tour we were either 'tactical' or below cloud so I did my 3 and 6 hourly heading checks using FMA.

I am surprised they didn't consider trailing a drogue chute to straighten the damn thing up.

Oh, the other thing, how can you keep 6 knockers sitting still for 10 minutes - you can't, so that really was that.

But that reminds me - the astro step. You left a light on to illuminate the step and a bag hanging off the sextant. If you didn't trip the buggers up they brained themselves

[airpolice]

Jig Peter said

* Fin extended uppards and forrards, "sticky-up bits" added to the tailplane

This is not only too techy for some ppruners, it is just wrong. I think you are referring to the "stick uppy" bits on the rear.

[Jig Peter]

@ PN

I hadn't thought about the drogue chute (!!) ... I did think that a few more feet of fuselage length might have been the answer (if a spot of cutting & shutting was practicable on such an old design of fuselage, built in an "old" way), but then there would be a limit to the ground angle on take-off and possible tail-strikes - unless the undercarriage was lengthened, which raised even more "wottifs". The design team clearly had its hands full with this "new wine/old bottles" affair ... as fitting a new wing built in accordance with modern practice to a "hand built" (!!) fuselage showed.
'Twas an all-too typical "cheapo bodge-up", in spite of much hard work by the design and engineering people. (Well, that's wot I fink ennyway).

Re astro: Driving a Victor 1 for astro (and other precise manoeuvres) I found that the G4B's markings on the pilots' display, with their 2° steps, didn't make things exactly easy, but with finger-tip pressure on the controls, one could stay within less than 1° of heading (on a good day, and not for all that long !!!). Your comments on "the other type" also go to show what a poor "vehicle" was being foisted on what used to be Coastal Command (and 'nuff said about that too).

[Pontius Navigator]

Remember it also had sticky down bits too, certainly not 'stick downy' bits.

[Jig Peter]

@ airpolice

I was referring to the rectangular sticky-uppy and downy "fins" on the horizontal, not the vertical tail - or were these operational kit?

[airpolice]

Guys,

The point is that bits go uppy or downy, they are not sticky.

No wonder the MRa4 was so far behind schedule when a description is so difficult to agree on, never mind the functionality!

[Jig Peter]

"Bits"

The "bits" I meant were surely fixed, to do something about stability in yaw, so they didn't move (hence were "stuck", as in "static", rather than "going up & down").
Sorry my "tech speak" has caused misunderstandings - "Spiritus Festivius" perhaps... Seasonal greetings to one and all, and specially those whose future is looking uncertain, both military and civilian.

[Rossian]

Yeah but .....

....you forgot to mention the ventral strakeythingy made of marine ply and duralamin which was supposed to help with lateral stability in addition to the sticky-uppy-downy thingies. The strakey thingy also provided irrefutable evidence of QFI's millisec of loss of concentration as he said "Now rotate positively, stick back - NOT THAT MUCH !!!!" Clunk.
NO! We didn't smirk. Honest guv.

To go back to MAD comps, there is still at ISK a pilot with the smoothest pair of hands when it came to that manouevre. One barely noticed that it was happening. He had the knack of reversing the roll or pitch manouevre juuuust before the bottom of the roll/pitch limit so that the reversal was imperceptible.

The Ancient Mariner

[camelspyyder]

The uppy-downy bits(UDB) on the tail were part of the AAR mod in 82, compensating for the extra lateral area of the probe I suppose. On the original mod the UDB were spare VHF aerials that we had lying around!

To an earlier poster I dont remember min crew MAD comps but on the OCU we always had about 20POB and did a comp on every tactical sortie.

CS (CamelSpotter in this case)

[davejb]

MAD comps were sometimes posted on the flypro as such - ie not something you did as an extra whilst on a CT or whatever, but a sortie specifically generated to set the MAD up on an aircraft. We'd fly them - at least the crews I was on - as min crew trips.

Prior to the introduction of SACS you'd do the rolls and pitches on cardinal headings for a while, the ESM guy would be adjusting rates and switches on the 9TC attempting to figure out the correct values for the set. A sort of iterative process of loops within loops, which - whenever I was on one - we'd tend to break up every now and then to let folk regain their composure and have a brew.

On my first OCU in 78 I remember doing them once or twice (mainly for demo to Mr Wheatland's idiot students - ie me, Snorky and Kev), but not every trip. Once SACS arrived it all speeded up rather.

By delaying the distribution of the nicer bits of in flight on such a sortie you could find days when even the DCS couldn't tempt some of the crew to eat. (I realise that groundies will not believe such a thing is possible).

Dave

[Pontius Navigator]

I thought the AAR-VHF aerial mod was because of the inherent yaw and dutch roll and thus necessary not juts because ot the probe but to ensure the probe was going in the same direction as the drogue.

Re the accuracy of the G4B, the Mk 2 Vs had Smiths MFS and the plotter used to monitor the MI with a magnfying glass. Once the HRS was introduced there was a digital readout to 1/10th deg.

(if a spot of cutting & shutting was practicable on such an old design of fuselage,

Don't you remember the Mk 3 was a cut and shut? Same fin just mounted on a new g*d awful empenage.

I suppose with hindsight the whole programme from Comet on was a cut and shut. The trials aircraft as the Comet had the radar but not the bomb bay and so on. Then sticking a searchlight on a fuel tank, a canoe on top of the tail etc etc.

[The Old Fat One]

To an earlier poster I dont remember min crew MAD comps but on the OCU we always had about 20POB and did a comp on every tactical sortie.

Concur with DJB - you're getting confused with the MAD comp post SACs fit. Prior to the SACs introduction, which was before the MR1 was replaced by the MR2, MAD comps were always scheduled as a specific 3 hour sortie and usually (but not always) minimum crew. No way would an OCU 20+ crew ever have flown a MAD comp before the SACs was fitted, except as DJB states, as a demo for training.

In fact, up until about '76 MAD comp crews were specifically authorised. Bear in mind the SACs itself was upgraded post MR2 introduction, hence where you might be getting confused.

Even if all went well it took over an hour to comp the MAD prior to SACs and on many an occasion it was virtually impossible to run in all the terms.

I once flew from on side of Scotland to the other and back again trying to run in V+ and had every crew member except the Captain honking (including me).

I was not a popular bunny.

[1771 DELETE]

Comps

Not only was the comp specifically authorised but only certain crews did them, in the wrong hands, both at the front and the back you could waste a lot of time and aircraft fatigue and not achieve anything with the old 9TC, the SACS was a vast improvement and basically allowed any crew to do a short comp on any sortie.

[oxenos]

In early '67, we had a presentation to all crews at Kinloss on our future aircraft. Didn't even have a name - just HS801. They showed a drawing, on which the aircraft had a simple Comet fin with a dome on top ( and that fin always looked too small on the Comet ).
An ancient aviator took one look and said " that fin's too small". Boffins go to great lengths to explain that the big dome on top (the ARAR/ARAX aerial) would have an endplate effect and there would not be a problem.
I heard afterwards that the first flight was rather short and shaky, and the test pilot got out and said "that fin's too small".
They added a fillet, then a bigger one, and the one on the Mk. 1 when it entered service was the third version.
We were told on the conversion course that the prohibition on opening the bomb doors with a double yaw damper failure was to avoid damage to the doors. Given that the doors looked as if they had been carved out of boilerplate, we rather suspected that it was more a case of the extra side area forward would have caused the thing to try to turn around and fly backwards.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Someone elucidate DCS, just fill in the acronym please?

Intrigued to see the Mighty Hunter had Boeing seats!

[Wasser]

Nutty Scientist

Ah the nutty scientist, also known as the Mad Professor or 'Bones' on AEDIT because of his physique.

As rep from the MAD bay I remember going to a monthly MAD meeting at a Nimrod base down south. Crews were complaining about the MAD performance since the new SACS had been started to be fitted. The Mad Prof then theorised for about 30mins, all of which went over my head. It wasn't until he said "it looks like the MAD signal isn't getting through to the SACS" that he started speaking my language again. We sorted the problem not long after.

Was Gina on the RP MAD trails for the new fit in the late 80s? I should remember her, but my memory's playing tricks again

[oldbaldeagle]

"Autolycus in.............." Am I the only one old enough to remember that cry?

[Agaricus bisporus]

SV, thanks. I might have known; so fits the caricature, doesn't it?