3rd rate force?

[davejb]

We have to prioritise spending on the real threats that face us in the future, not on historic threats no matter how much "nostalgia" we may have for them.

It's not nostalgia (okay, for some it is), it's also a matter of understanding that should a conventional threat loom over the horizon then you have to build up to a war footing on a pre-existing base capability. If you run the conventional forces down too far then IF a conventional threat arises it will take too long (if it's possible at all) to rebuild to face it.

Terrorism does not provide the same 'game over' threat that another mad git from the continent or beyond could provide (even OUR customs guys would spot THAT big a nuke in a backpack)...and I would have thought counter terrorism spending was likely to prove a diminishing returns scenario where beyond a certain point you advance capability at a steadily declining pace while costs balloon. Which isn't to say that we are spending up to that point currently, of course.

'Real threats that face us in the future' - if there is one salient point that history has reinforced over and over again it is that THE big threats are never what was expected or planned for.... hence the need to provide a well rounded defence, both via MI5 and conventional forces. When the budget cannot support what we need then (a) Shoot anyone who has been in the last 3 or 4 cabinets - it's their fault, (b) Shoot the FSA for being a toothless regulator, (c) pull back across the board if necessary, but retain core competencies in all areas...because when the 'who'd have thought it' threat appears you then have at least a cadre to build on.

Given the current dire straits we should not be involved overseas full stop, we should be building a conventional defence of the UK - it is sheer stupidity to involve ourselves overseas when we cannot even protect our own coastline... if the bloody Vikings reappeared tomorrow they'd be 50 miles inland before we even realised it'd happened.

Dave

[cazatou]

Jindabyne

Thanks for the correction - afraid I had to dash off to the Caribbean at that time to suppress Secession by one of our Colonies. Well, somebody had to do it - and the landing strips weren't long enough for Fast Jets!!

It was on my second Detatchment there that I was asked the most stupid question I have ever been asked. Having just staggered off the back end of a Hercules after a 12 hr Atlantic crossing, a Sqn Ldr came up to us and said "Are you the crew that's come to do the Tour of the Caribbean? "

Well, what would your answer be?

PS The Itinerary

Antigua - Barbados - St Vincent - Dominica - Antigua - Dominica - St Lucia - Trinidad - Grenada - Guyana - Trinidad - Guyana - St Vincent - Barbados - St Lucia - Antigua - St Kitts - Antigua.

The VIP ( Deputy Foreign Secretary) invited the entire crew to the House of Lords for Lunch as a "Thank You".

[Guzlin Adnams]

£400m

MIS budget £400m. Remind me, how much do we pump into the Euromoneypit every year. It's not the budget from fast air (or come to think of it any air) that should be plundered. I'm sure I heard that there's a good documentary on soon concerning the final destination of too much of our Euro contribution.

[Dan Winterland]

Sounds a bit like 1934 when we had 12 fighter Squadrons. Anyone remember what happened after that?

[BEagle]

Err, are you sure Dan? Anyway, according to RAF Timeline 1930-39, here's some of what happened next:

July 1934: A major expansion of the RAF is announced, with the number of Home Defence squadrons increased from 52 to 75, and bringing the total first-line strength to 128 squadrons within five years.

May 1935: The British Government votes to treble the number of frontline military aircraft available to defend UK soil. This adds up to an increase of 1500 aircraft of all types.

July 1935: A Royal Review of the RAF carried out by King George V at Duxford and Mildenhall includes a flypast of 350 aircraft.

July 1936: As a result of RAF expansion, the Air Council decides to re-organised the Air Defence of Great Britain into four specialised Commands.

July 1936: The RAFVR is formed. Volunteers are recruited for a minimum of 5 years, receiving flying training at weekends and during an annual 15 day camp. By September 1939, the RAFVR had 63000 men trained as pilots as well as in medical and technical trades.

December 1937: The first Hurricanes enter service with 111 Squadron at Northolt.

June 1938: The first Spitfires enter service with 19 Squadron at Duxford.

January 1939: RAF now has 135 squadrons (74 bomber, 27 fighter, 12 army co-operation, 17 reconnaissance, 4 torpedo-bomber and 1 communications). In addition to this, the RAuxAF has a further 19 squadrons (3 bomber, 11 fighter, 2 army co-operation and 3 reconnaissance).



Fast forward to 1 December 1962 when the RAF had 22 squadrons of V-bombers alone.... I wonder what the strength of the RAF will be on the 50th anniversary of that date?

[Finningley Boy]

1 December 1962 when the RAF had 22 squadrons of V-bombers alone.... I wonder what the strength of the RAF will be on the 50th anniversary of that date?

22 Typhoon airframes alone!

FB

[cazatou]

BEagle

An impressive list EXCEPT by the outbreak of WW2 the numbers of available Fighter and Bomber aircraft had increased - but those aircraft (apart from the Hurricane, Spitfire and Wellington) were not fit for purpose.

A late friend of mine (Ken Makin) volunteered to serve with 601 Sqn Aux AF as an AC2 WOp/AG and took part in the first raid on Germany - which was an attack by 25 and 601 Sqn Blenheim 1F's on the German Naval Base on the island of Borkum on 28 November 1939.

25lb Cooper Bombs left over from WW1 and 303 calibre machine guns made little impact on the Ferro - Concrete defences. Luckily there were no aircraft losses.

AC2 Makin survived the war uninjured and by VE day (when he was still on Operations in the Far East) was a Flt Lt with DFC - he retired as a Sqn Ldr; a total of 11 promotions.