How to deal with Somali Pirates
The judicial solution might be for an International Court to be established (akin to the ICC and ICTY) where persons alleged to have committeed acts of piracy on the high seas can face trial. Because the court room and prisons are the only 'international territory' for the purposes of the trial and subsequent sentencing, this removes the concerns on extradition, family support etc. Daily Mail readers will be happy.
The RN, is I believe, limited in handling what is, in essence, a civil criminal matter. Theor cells are not compliant, for example.
On a related matter, on 20 November the NATO-Russia Council made the following statement:
'As piracy and armed robbery at sea continue to pose a significant and growing threat to maritime security, the NATO-Russia Council member states will expand exisiting tactical level cooperation, including through joint training and exercises'.
So perhaps, we might see a 'Russian' solution on the high seas as part of a NATO approach...
The RN, is I believe, limited in handling what is, in essence, a civil criminal matter. Theor cells are not compliant, for example.
On a related matter, on 20 November the NATO-Russia Council made the following statement:
'As piracy and armed robbery at sea continue to pose a significant and growing threat to maritime security, the NATO-Russia Council member states will expand exisiting tactical level cooperation, including through joint training and exercises'.
So perhaps, we might see a 'Russian' solution on the high seas as part of a NATO approach...
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 22nd Nov 2010 at 12:08.
Cunning Artificer
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British and Dutch East Indiamen carried a frigate's fit of guns and a complement of Marines and were seldom the victim of pirate attacks. Not succesful ones anyhow.
Perhaps equipping merchant vessels with an automatic defence weapon, derived from something like Goalkeeper for instance, would be a deterrent? The merchant ship would use that deafening loud speaker system that many carry, to warn off an approaching pirate boat and if it then approached within a preset distance, the gun would fire automatically.
Perhaps equipping merchant vessels with an automatic defence weapon, derived from something like Goalkeeper for instance, would be a deterrent? The merchant ship would use that deafening loud speaker system that many carry, to warn off an approaching pirate boat and if it then approached within a preset distance, the gun would fire automatically.
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Blacksheep - perhaps you don't need to look so far back....
Here's your answer....
Defensively Equipped Merchant Ship (DEMS) was an Admiralty Trade Division program established in June, 1939, to arm 5,500 British merchant ships with an adequate defence against enemy submarines and aircraft. The acronym DEMS was used to describe the ships carrying the guns, the guns aboard the ships, the military personnel manning the guns, and the shore establishment supporting the system.[1]
BL 4 inch Mk VII low-angle gun on a DEMS in 1943, an obsolete WWI gun typical of WWII DEMS armament
During the Second World War, the objective was to equip each ship with a low-angle gun mounted aft as defence against surfaced submarines and a high-angle gun and rifle-calibre machine guns for defence against air attack.[9] 3,400 ships had been armed by the end of 1940;[3] and all ships were armed by 1943.[10]
The low-angle guns were typically in the 3-inch to 6-inch range (75–150 mm) depending on the size of the ship. Rifle-caliber machine guns were augmented or replaced by 20 mm Oerlikon as they became available. The High-Angle QF 12pdr Mk V mount was the most common anti-aircraft gun, and later ships sometimes received 40 mm Bofors guns.[9]
Note that 3,400 merchant ships were provided with armament by the end of 1940........more than 48 ships per week! The difference then though was that we had political leaders who took the threat seriously and didn't duck responsibility. It can't be rocket science to come up with a similar scheme though I suspect that the UN/NATO/WMO or whoever will shy away from issuing appropriate rules of engagement!
Defensively Equipped Merchant Ship (DEMS) was an Admiralty Trade Division program established in June, 1939, to arm 5,500 British merchant ships with an adequate defence against enemy submarines and aircraft. The acronym DEMS was used to describe the ships carrying the guns, the guns aboard the ships, the military personnel manning the guns, and the shore establishment supporting the system.[1]
BL 4 inch Mk VII low-angle gun on a DEMS in 1943, an obsolete WWI gun typical of WWII DEMS armament
During the Second World War, the objective was to equip each ship with a low-angle gun mounted aft as defence against surfaced submarines and a high-angle gun and rifle-calibre machine guns for defence against air attack.[9] 3,400 ships had been armed by the end of 1940;[3] and all ships were armed by 1943.[10]
The low-angle guns were typically in the 3-inch to 6-inch range (75–150 mm) depending on the size of the ship. Rifle-caliber machine guns were augmented or replaced by 20 mm Oerlikon as they became available. The High-Angle QF 12pdr Mk V mount was the most common anti-aircraft gun, and later ships sometimes received 40 mm Bofors guns.[9]
Note that 3,400 merchant ships were provided with armament by the end of 1940........more than 48 ships per week! The difference then though was that we had political leaders who took the threat seriously and didn't duck responsibility. It can't be rocket science to come up with a similar scheme though I suspect that the UN/NATO/WMO or whoever will shy away from issuing appropriate rules of engagement!
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Disclaimer: I'm a civilian.
The pirates that boarded the Taipan are currently facing a jury in Hamburg. Typically for a fair, Western process, it took ten months from capture to get here - and on the first day of trial, the defense demanded that one of the ten be released because he was only 13, so not actionable, when the state prosecutor's office estimates the guy's age at 19. Of course, in our modern world, the identity and age of a defendant may stop a sentence being pronounced, even if it's clear the pirate was caught red-handed. Afterwards, there'll be the question of collective and individual guilt, and all that. 
So in the end, if we really want to defend our way of doing things, and our degree of fairness in court, we're probably bound to live with unsatisfactory outcomes from a determent point of view. Or change the way we do things in justice...
-- humour alert --
Maybe best put RIAA on them like against music pirates. Seeing as Jammie Thomas was sentenced to 80.000$ per song, each worth roughly 1$ on iTunes, versus an estimated value of 20M€ for a large and almost new container vessel like the Taipan, they should be fined about 160bn euros combined - say 16bn€ each of them, and their home towns or clans should be held accountable. Or they might work it off in jail on a 8€/h rate - for a couple billion hours?
The pirates that boarded the Taipan are currently facing a jury in Hamburg. Typically for a fair, Western process, it took ten months from capture to get here - and on the first day of trial, the defense demanded that one of the ten be released because he was only 13, so not actionable, when the state prosecutor's office estimates the guy's age at 19
. Of course, in our modern world, the identity and age of a defendant may stop a sentence being pronounced, even if it's clear the pirate was caught red-handed. Afterwards, there'll be the question of collective and individual guilt, and all that. So in the end, if we really want to defend our way of doing things, and our degree of fairness in court, we're probably bound to live with unsatisfactory outcomes from a determent point of view. Or change the way we do things in justice...
-- humour alert --
Maybe best put RIAA on them like against music pirates. Seeing as Jammie Thomas was sentenced to 80.000$ per song, each worth roughly 1$ on iTunes, versus an estimated value of 20M€ for a large and almost new container vessel like the Taipan, they should be fined about 160bn euros combined - say 16bn€ each of them, and their home towns or clans should be held accountable. Or they might work it off in jail on a 8€/h rate - for a couple billion hours?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Perhaps I am being the Fun Detector here - but are we sugesting extra-judicial killing of pirates?
Letter of marque - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Difference is, I suppose, is that we are not in a state of war...piracy is a criminal act!
BTW - how effective were DEMS vessels and did they make a significant contribution?? I ask this because my wife's uncle, 2nd Mate on a tanker, was responsible for the defensive armaments. He was manning the aft conning position (where fire control was based) when the whole stern was removed in a torpedo attack. His brother was also lost on 100 Sqn, after the fall of Singapore.
BTW - how effective were DEMS vessels and did they make a significant contribution?? I ask this because my wife's uncle, 2nd Mate on a tanker, was responsible for the defensive armaments. He was manning the aft conning position (where fire control was based) when the whole stern was removed in a torpedo attack. His brother was also lost on 100 Sqn, after the fall of Singapore.
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The practical way to stop pirates is threefold, and simple.
1) prevent, on draconian legal penalty, the payment of any ransom for person or property.
2)Instigate a continuous policy of special forces and guided weapons raids on their bases, premises and assets.
3)apply a vigorous application of rule 303 when they are caught at sea.
It would soon come to an end.
A considerable proportion of Somalis are by nature violent and ruthless chancers with little or no concept of law, government or restraint who regard any softness as not only an invitation but also an indication of deserving to be rolled over for weakness. The ONLY rule they understand is the gun, and they respect that, and that only. The pirates will be extatic and bemused that we keep sending them merchant ships unarmed, and utterly disbelieving that any nation of "men" would send warships that do nothing to stop them, they must think of us as beyond contempt; spoiled, fat, rich brats just asking to be robbed and coming back for more. We ignore that simple fact at our soft, pathetic western bleeding-heart peril. Anything less than main force is pussyfooting around the problem and will be regarded by the Somalis with nothing but contempt.
We had the chance to sort the place out in 1993. We went in mob-handed and early indications, on the rare occasions where firness was employed showed we were on track. We blew it totally by pathetic politically correct fluffiness earning the Somalis undying contempt and condemning them to decades of lawless anarchy - just look at the state of the country today. By not sorting this piracy problem out firmly we are merely promoting the spread of somali anarchy across the oceans too.
While we continue to pay them tens of Millions this will only increase. Why are we surprised?
Me and my tribe against my country.
Me and my family against my tribe.
Me and my brother against my family.
Me against my brother.
The Somali code of allegiance.
Imagine what they think of us.
1) prevent, on draconian legal penalty, the payment of any ransom for person or property.
2)Instigate a continuous policy of special forces and guided weapons raids on their bases, premises and assets.
3)apply a vigorous application of rule 303 when they are caught at sea.
It would soon come to an end.
A considerable proportion of Somalis are by nature violent and ruthless chancers with little or no concept of law, government or restraint who regard any softness as not only an invitation but also an indication of deserving to be rolled over for weakness. The ONLY rule they understand is the gun, and they respect that, and that only. The pirates will be extatic and bemused that we keep sending them merchant ships unarmed, and utterly disbelieving that any nation of "men" would send warships that do nothing to stop them, they must think of us as beyond contempt; spoiled, fat, rich brats just asking to be robbed and coming back for more. We ignore that simple fact at our soft, pathetic western bleeding-heart peril. Anything less than main force is pussyfooting around the problem and will be regarded by the Somalis with nothing but contempt.
We had the chance to sort the place out in 1993. We went in mob-handed and early indications, on the rare occasions where firness was employed showed we were on track. We blew it totally by pathetic politically correct fluffiness earning the Somalis undying contempt and condemning them to decades of lawless anarchy - just look at the state of the country today. By not sorting this piracy problem out firmly we are merely promoting the spread of somali anarchy across the oceans too.
While we continue to pay them tens of Millions this will only increase. Why are we surprised?
Me and my tribe against my country.
Me and my family against my tribe.
Me and my brother against my family.
Me against my brother.
The Somali code of allegiance.
Imagine what they think of us.
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 22nd Nov 2010 at 14:36.
I don't think that code of allegiance is specific to Somali's & I've seen it attributed to Bedouin, various Middle East countries and just about every Football Club in the UK, Italy, Germany and the Netherlands.
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It may well not be specific, did anyone suggest it was?
None of the societies you listed make that sort of active gun-toting anarchy the daily pursuit of their lives but sorry, I don't follow oikball so can't comment on that.
None of the societies you listed make that sort of active gun-toting anarchy the daily pursuit of their lives but sorry, I don't follow oikball so can't comment on that.
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 22nd Nov 2010 at 14:52.
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...piracy is a criminal act!
So what do you think might be the minimum force necessary to repel a group of criminals wielding RPGs and machine guns?
So what do you think might be the minimum force necessary to repel a group of criminals wielding RPGs and machine guns?
Do you recall the Blues Brothers? "Excessive force is authorised.........."
If I may slightly misquote Admiral Farragut ...
(Farragut's maxim is generally held to be:
"The best protection against the enemy's fire is well directed fire from your own guns.")
"The best defense against the enemy's guns is well directed fire from our own guns."
Back to armed merchantmen, and the will to use their firepower. That second part seems a problem. (Farragut's maxim is generally held to be:
"The best protection against the enemy's fire is well directed fire from your own guns.")
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The take-home message is don't f--k with Russian vessels, assets, or people, whereas the Brits look like a bunch of pussies who are fair game. I understand that a year or so ago the RN desisted from apprehending pirates fearing that if they did they could legally claim asylum in the UK. Please, please tell me I am wrong, but since the Afghan airline hijackers of a decade ago are all now living on benefits in the UK with bigger houses and more disposable income than me, I would not be surprised if I am right.
As piracy on the high seas is universally frowned upon I can't see that self-defence or mutual support should be too big a problem and is not really in the same category as summary justice.
I like the idea of reopening Aden and filling it with Hunters! I know my old man would be back in like a shot, and I'd probably join him.
As piracy on the high seas is universally frowned upon I can't see that self-defence or mutual support should be too big a problem and is not really in the same category as summary justice.
I like the idea of reopening Aden and filling it with Hunters! I know my old man would be back in like a shot, and I'd probably join him.
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Just sink their shanty boats with them in it. If they canmake the shore without getting nibbled by sharks, they get to live.
The only way to deter these people is a f*cking large stick. That includes the 13 year old scrotes that get caught with them.
Old enough to hld an AK? Old enough to drown.
The only way to deter these people is a f*cking large stick. That includes the 13 year old scrotes that get caught with them.
Old enough to hld an AK? Old enough to drown.
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The only way to deter these people is a f*cking large stick. That includes the 13 year old scrotes that get caught with them.
Old enough to hld an AK? Old enough to drown.
Old enough to hld an AK? Old enough to drown.
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I know its been put here before (somewhere), but any PPRuNers fancy a cruise, as the weather here seems to be taking a turn for the worse. Sunny blue skys, clear waters, good "deck sports" etc. Whats not to like.
Somali Cruises - Cruise along Africa's east coast!
Somali Cruises - Cruise along Africa's east coast!
Thread Starter
Wife's grandfather was a dutch merchant navy captain during and post-WW2, you could imagine the many nights spent listening to seemingly incredulous tales upon the sea.......he was quite clear in his treatment of pirates though and had his actions backed by the law book of the high seas - how many Israeli airliners were hijacked after their destruction of the first one?
"Oooh, I feel like some easy money, not going to risk hijacking an Israeli airliner as there's not much return - better I opt for those soft Western airlines........better still, if it all goes tits-up I could settle in the West Country in a nice 4-bed detached......"
Just think, if a 'hard-line' against Somali pirates had been applied from start then the Chandlers journey would probably not have been interupted in such the way as it was?
"Oooh, I feel like some easy money, not going to risk hijacking an Israeli airliner as there's not much return - better I opt for those soft Western airlines........better still, if it all goes tits-up I could settle in the West Country in a nice 4-bed detached......"
Just think, if a 'hard-line' against Somali pirates had been applied from start then the Chandlers journey would probably not have been interupted in such the way as it was?