F-22 Raptor missing in Alaska - search underway . . .
Interesting read of another "post-OBOGS shutdown, elusive green ring" incident (albeit during daytime) on page 17 here:
http://www.public.navy.mil/navsafece..._Nov-Dec11.pdf
The F-22 mishap pilot had an additional disadvantage of being supersonic. Once he inadvertently got nose low, things happened overwhelmingly quickly.
http://www.public.navy.mil/navsafece..._Nov-Dec11.pdf
The F-22 mishap pilot had an additional disadvantage of being supersonic. Once he inadvertently got nose low, things happened overwhelmingly quickly.
Last edited by Vzlet; 20th Dec 2011 at 12:07. Reason: "failure" changed to "shutdown"
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
USAF Investigation fails to identify F-22 oxygen problems
Interesting that despite no "smoking gun" (sic) being discovered the F-22 continues to enounter pilot reported oxygen related problems. Obviously the fatality in Alaska and the subsequent lawsuit has focused the USAF to look closer at this, the more cynical would question how many hypoxia related incidents you need before you start a full investigation.
F-22 Oxygen Problem Still Eluding Investigators
F-22 Oxygen Problem Still Eluding Investigators
F-22 pilots will keep flying the world’s leading fighter jet even though service leaders cannot figure out why its pilots continue suffocating in flight, officials said Thursday.
Pilots continue to periodically report suffering hypoxia-like symptoms, which occur when not enough oxygen reaches the brain. The Air Force lost one F-22 and its pilot, Capt. Jeff Haney, in 2010 after his onboard oxygen system shut down and his plane crashed into the Alaskan wilderness.
Pilots continue to periodically report suffering hypoxia-like symptoms, which occur when not enough oxygen reaches the brain. The Air Force lost one F-22 and its pilot, Capt. Jeff Haney, in 2010 after his onboard oxygen system shut down and his plane crashed into the Alaskan wilderness.
The Air Force lost one F-22 and its pilot, Capt. Jeff Haney, in 2010 after his onboard oxygen system shut down and his plane crashed into the Alaskan wilderness.
This is one of those accidents that we'll never be able to identify the direct cause with 100% authority, except for the nebulous "something stopped him concentrating on flying the jet and he flew it into the ground." Rather than blaming a system that worked just because it's flavour of the month, though, I'd be looking at rapidly redesigning a pointlessly-awkward emergency oxygen system that is almost impossible to operate in the dark in cold weather kit.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Ares: 60 Minutes Over Langley
A pair of Air Force F-22 pilots from Virginia’s Langley Air Force Base is swapping the air for the airwaves Sunday night, explaining to CBS’ 60 Minutes why they’ve opted not to continue flying the F-22, the Air Force’s hottest fighter. Major Jeremy Gordon and Captain Josh Wilson detail their concerns – shared by other Raptor drivers – that the aircraft doesn’t guarantee them sufficient oxygen.
Is the F-22 safe to fly? “I’m not comfortable answering that question,” Gordon responds. “I’m not comfortable flying in the F-22 right now.” Hypoxia – a lack of oxygen that has persisted in the F-22 despite vain Air Force probes to figure out why – is dangerous. “The onset,” Gordon says, “is insidious.”
Wilson tells Lesley Stahl of his dogfight against hypoxia during an F-22 flight last year. “It was…kind of a surreal experience,” he says, taking “immense concentration” to perform simple tasks. Pulling an emergency oxygen ring proved daunting: “I couldn’t find it. I couldn’t remember what part of the aircraft it was in.”
That apparently was the challenge facing Air Force Captain Jeff Haney, who experienced breathing problems before his fatal F-22 crash in Alaska in 2010. The Air Force blamed Haney, and not his F-22, for the crash.
All of this is embarrassing to the Air Force, which bought 179 operational F-22s for more than $400 million each. Designed to combat the next-generation of Soviet fighters – which never materialized – the planes have sat on the tarmac despite the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya raging in the skies above them. They have no role in today’s wars, and by the time there’s someone to battle, they’ll be obsolete.
In the seven months since the grounded F-22 was returned to flight – after experts could not pinpoint the source of the breathing problems – there have been 11 more cases of hypoxia reported. That’s fairly rare, but as these pilots step into the limelight, one thing is clear: another mysterious crash and the F-22 could be in a steep dive from which recovery may prove impossible.
A pair of Air Force F-22 pilots from Virginia’s Langley Air Force Base is swapping the air for the airwaves Sunday night, explaining to CBS’ 60 Minutes why they’ve opted not to continue flying the F-22, the Air Force’s hottest fighter. Major Jeremy Gordon and Captain Josh Wilson detail their concerns – shared by other Raptor drivers – that the aircraft doesn’t guarantee them sufficient oxygen.
Is the F-22 safe to fly? “I’m not comfortable answering that question,” Gordon responds. “I’m not comfortable flying in the F-22 right now.” Hypoxia – a lack of oxygen that has persisted in the F-22 despite vain Air Force probes to figure out why – is dangerous. “The onset,” Gordon says, “is insidious.”
Wilson tells Lesley Stahl of his dogfight against hypoxia during an F-22 flight last year. “It was…kind of a surreal experience,” he says, taking “immense concentration” to perform simple tasks. Pulling an emergency oxygen ring proved daunting: “I couldn’t find it. I couldn’t remember what part of the aircraft it was in.”
That apparently was the challenge facing Air Force Captain Jeff Haney, who experienced breathing problems before his fatal F-22 crash in Alaska in 2010. The Air Force blamed Haney, and not his F-22, for the crash.
All of this is embarrassing to the Air Force, which bought 179 operational F-22s for more than $400 million each. Designed to combat the next-generation of Soviet fighters – which never materialized – the planes have sat on the tarmac despite the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya raging in the skies above them. They have no role in today’s wars, and by the time there’s someone to battle, they’ll be obsolete.
In the seven months since the grounded F-22 was returned to flight – after experts could not pinpoint the source of the breathing problems – there have been 11 more cases of hypoxia reported. That’s fairly rare, but as these pilots step into the limelight, one thing is clear: another mysterious crash and the F-22 could be in a steep dive from which recovery may prove impossible.
And they would 'deal with it', without fanfare, while the whole thing is resolved.
This isn't the the first fighter, nor will it be the last, that has killed someone...
This isn't the the first fighter, nor will it be the last, that has killed someone...
I'm on my 8th Spaten Optimator, I can 'deal with it'....
Hypoxia is indeed insidious - OBOGS failure needs to be clearly annunciated and a back-up system triggered automatically. End of.
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When I first read this thread I was appalled to see how those officers had gone outside their chain of command and gone public discussing issues that should remain within their squadron. To appear live on a TV channel is just so wrong and surely this would mean the end of their careers. Would they be removed from flying duties and possibly given a posting to Antarctica where they could count snowflakes?
Then on another thread I was reading posts by a number of highly qualified forum members who were and still are highly critical of military investigations into aircraft accidents\incidents. They quite rightly doubt the integrity of those that act as purchaser, owner, investigator, judge and jury. They query the impartiality of those in charge and question just how critical or impartial these investigations will be.
My questions therefore is how impartial have the investigations into the issues with the F-22 been? Have these officers given statements, been questioned by investigators and their evidence treated with the respect it may deserve? If these officers have seen reports that have been released regarding the alleged issues and if they are a cover-up that blames the pilots as opposed to the alleged defective equipment, then what options would they have? Have they gone through the correct channels to voice their concerns? Have they been stone walled and if so do they feel they have no alternative other than to go public regarding an issue they might feel will lead to more deaths?
I am NOT defending their actions as I find it so totally wrong to go public, I am however trying to understand why they have done what they did. Would I even have ‘the courage’ to go outside my chain of command regarding this type of issue?
Then on another thread I was reading posts by a number of highly qualified forum members who were and still are highly critical of military investigations into aircraft accidents\incidents. They quite rightly doubt the integrity of those that act as purchaser, owner, investigator, judge and jury. They query the impartiality of those in charge and question just how critical or impartial these investigations will be.
My questions therefore is how impartial have the investigations into the issues with the F-22 been? Have these officers given statements, been questioned by investigators and their evidence treated with the respect it may deserve? If these officers have seen reports that have been released regarding the alleged issues and if they are a cover-up that blames the pilots as opposed to the alleged defective equipment, then what options would they have? Have they gone through the correct channels to voice their concerns? Have they been stone walled and if so do they feel they have no alternative other than to go public regarding an issue they might feel will lead to more deaths?
I am NOT defending their actions as I find it so totally wrong to go public, I am however trying to understand why they have done what they did. Would I even have ‘the courage’ to go outside my chain of command regarding this type of issue?
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Watch Afterburn Trailer - Video Detective
It wouldn't be the first time that someone who is directly affected by the deaths of loved ones or colleagues has to cause a stir to get the right things done. Since when has the using the chain of command ever got anything achieved quickly??? It's used as an excuse for those that wish to remain unaccountable & since when has the chain of command had more importance than lives??? It's easy to be the one making the assertion when it's not your friends or family at real risk, put yourself in their shoes.
History repeats, never trust a politician or the military.
It wouldn't be the first time that someone who is directly affected by the deaths of loved ones or colleagues has to cause a stir to get the right things done. Since when has the using the chain of command ever got anything achieved quickly??? It's used as an excuse for those that wish to remain unaccountable & since when has the chain of command had more importance than lives??? It's easy to be the one making the assertion when it's not your friends or family at real risk, put yourself in their shoes.
History repeats, never trust a politician or the military.
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Can a portable oxygen detector be used by the pilots in the cockpit? I'm a mining official by trade and must carry an instrument to detect methane and a deficency of oxygen at all times whilst underground. It alarms (vibrations, a loud beep and flashing red lights) when the oxygen level drops under 19.5%. The unit is no larger than a mobile phone and the only problem I can see is that we are at a constant air pressure and not sitting in a fighter cockpit with constantly variable pressure as it goes about it's business. The type we used is sensitive to pressure changes but that's not to say other types are too. The Xam 5000 costs a few thousand dollars which is chicken feed to the cost of an F-22 or a pilot's life.
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The pilot is breathing it through a mask and not from the cockpit. So would need to be in the supply.
Indeed, measuring the partial pressure of O2 is simple - the O2 sensor is a small device and easily fitted into any breathing system. We use them in diving for various reasons. The don't have a very good shelf or service life, though.
It may not solve the problem, but could certainly overcome a symptom of it.
You should patent the idea before the manufacturers read this!
Courtney
It may not solve the problem, but could certainly overcome a symptom of it.
You should patent the idea before the manufacturers read this!
Courtney
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So it could slip over the little fella.... would make life interesting if ejecting... And what would the female pilot do? Mind you dat581, the original poster did say it was only a little unit and could be selected to vibrate. 
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Pulse oximetry (ie measuring the amount of oxygen carried in the blood) has significant limitations and does not correlate very well to the amount of oxygen being delivered to the brain. Along with the problems of where to put the probe (gloves etc), other factors can significantly alter blood flow to the brain, hence oxygen delivery to the brain. Whilst it is better than nothing it is not the solution some people think it is. There have been incidents in the GA world where individuals have been falsely reasured by these devices.