Royal Saudi Air Force - impressive toys, but are they any good?
Story from a an old friend from many years ago about the Tornado F3 OCU at Coningsby and Saudi aircrew,
Staff navigator instructor returns to crew room and throws bone dome at the wall screaming that his pilot had tried to kill him and that was just taxying to the runway. Staff nav instructor leans over side of aircraft and asks friend to come up the steps to start the aircraft. Story from Valley of two hawks parked on taxyway as pilots wanted their lunch and did feel the need to return to the flightline.
Staff navigator instructor returns to crew room and throws bone dome at the wall screaming that his pilot had tried to kill him and that was just taxying to the runway. Staff nav instructor leans over side of aircraft and asks friend to come up the steps to start the aircraft. Story from Valley of two hawks parked on taxyway as pilots wanted their lunch and did feel the need to return to the flightline.
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Double Zero: I heard some horror stories from GW 1, including RAF pilots refusing to fly with brainless Saudi's.
Closer to home, what the hell has happened to spelling and grammar ?
It seems the difference between 'there' and 'their' especially is quickly becoming optional !
You seem to have included a rogue apostrophe in Suadi's. I assume you were using the posessive. Or perhaps superfluous apostophe's are optional?
Closer to home, what the hell has happened to spelling and grammar ?
It seems the difference between 'there' and 'their' especially is quickly becoming optional !
You seem to have included a rogue apostrophe in Suadi's. I assume you were using the posessive. Or perhaps superfluous apostophe's are optional?
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LP
You seem to have included a rogue Suadi before your apostophe. I guess superfluous Suadis are optional.
And let's not forget it's''''' 1431 over there. Our fast jet ops weren't up to much then either.
You seem to have included a rogue Suadi before your apostophe. I guess superfluous Suadis are optional.
And let's not forget it's''''' 1431 over there. Our fast jet ops weren't up to much then either.
A quote comes to mind " hard to soar like an eagle when you work, in this case, with goats"
Came across a few potential eagles when I was there but the culture would never allow them to reach a high standard. How do you get out and mix it when all your buddies just wanna drink tea
Came across a few potential eagles when I was there but the culture would never allow them to reach a high standard. How do you get out and mix it when all your buddies just wanna drink tea
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The standard is improving rapidly following recent changes to the recruitment and training of RSAF aircrew.
BTW Beagle, I think the 1st prize for GW1 tanking buffoonery should go to the RAF GR1 crew from Dhahran who rolled inverted to level directly behind the VC10 basket, took a stab at it without stabilising, ripped it cleanly off, before descending back to Dhahran. Job done in less than a minute!
BTW Beagle, I think the 1st prize for GW1 tanking buffoonery should go to the RAF GR1 crew from Dhahran who rolled inverted to level directly behind the VC10 basket, took a stab at it without stabilising, ripped it cleanly off, before descending back to Dhahran. Job done in less than a minute!
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Tabuk late '80's
Taxydual on 'liaison visit'.
Israeli's send an RF4 PR aircraft on a regular basis (ie you could set your watch by the timing of the overflight).
3 x RSAF on QRA.
All scrambled.
No 1 loses a donk on takeoff. Crashes in the bondhu.
No 2 forgets to remove the pitot tube cover, aborts.
No 3 realises he has no 'mates' to go with him and votes to no-go.
All 3 pilots were 'of the Royal House' (ie money no object), they 'bought' their Pilots Wings rather than earned them.
30 years down the line, I don't think much has changed.
Edited due to successful memory relight.
It was early '80's not late. (81?)
Aircraft were Lightnings.
Taxydual on 'liaison visit'.
Israeli's send an RF4 PR aircraft on a regular basis (ie you could set your watch by the timing of the overflight).
3 x RSAF on QRA.
All scrambled.
No 1 loses a donk on takeoff. Crashes in the bondhu.
No 2 forgets to remove the pitot tube cover, aborts.
No 3 realises he has no 'mates' to go with him and votes to no-go.
All 3 pilots were 'of the Royal House' (ie money no object), they 'bought' their Pilots Wings rather than earned them.
30 years down the line, I don't think much has changed.
Edited due to successful memory relight.
It was early '80's not late. (81?)
Aircraft were Lightnings.
Last edited by taxydual; 5th Nov 2010 at 07:56. Reason: Dull memory
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Great stories of RSAF incompetence, but none of it changes the fact that they have the sort of kit and funding that makes us look like the third world joke after SDSR.
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...they have the sort of kit and funding that makes us look like the third world joke after SDSR.
The standard is improving rapidly following recent changes to the recruitment and training of RSAF aircrew.
Felt I was rereading some of the thread on Indonesia where because of incompetence in the past people presume it continues for the future where with lots of $$$$ they can buy in what is needed.
After all they bought it what was needed when Kuwait was invaded.
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Chivenor 1967. Arab pilot (Saudi I think) forgets to select full flap on landing, and inevitably takes the barrier. Crash crews find an empty cockpit. Pilot found reading in the anteroom, and had to be shown the auth sheet to convince him that it was indeed he who had entered the barrier!
As jindabyne will recall, there was a fatal accident on the approach to Shawbury in the early 1970s involving an Arab student in a Hunter 7....
The rumour going around at the time was that he was on a suspension check and had previously told his course colleagues that he couldn't go home to face the shame if he was chopped.....
The rumour going around at the time was that he was on a suspension check and had previously told his course colleagues that he couldn't go home to face the shame if he was chopped.....
Thread Starter
Now if a fatalistic approach, an over-fondness for fine living, and extreme (largely groundless) self confidence and boasting were an indicator of military prowess, then the French would not be the race of successful martial warriors........
Ah, OK. I see your point!
Joking aside, I wonder why another Islamic air force (that of Pakistan) has such a different reputation, and why the Omanis are so much more polished and professional than the Air Force in the Kingdom of Saud? (Or are the Omanis just better at PR when it comes to their reputation?)
Ah, OK. I see your point!
Joking aside, I wonder why another Islamic air force (that of Pakistan) has such a different reputation, and why the Omanis are so much more polished and professional than the Air Force in the Kingdom of Saud? (Or are the Omanis just better at PR when it comes to their reputation?)
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Jacko...
One word...culture.
Straight from the horse's mouth (in this case a well-educated, wordly, Saudi software engineer.)
Rough quote...
"Westerners confuse religion and culture all the time. Saudi's have the same religion as a country such as Egypt, but the culture could not be more different."
By direct observation, Bahrain and Dharan are about 10 miles apart and joined by a whopping big bridge.
As you drive through the multi layer customs and immigration checks from Bahrain to Saudi you will read a big green sign that says...
"Welcome to Saudi Arabia. If you bring drugs into our country we will execute you."
As you drive from Saudi to Bahrain there is a sign which reads...
"Welcome to Bahrain. The fun starts here".
Anybody who has made that trip (which is pretty much most of Dharan, Saudi or Brit, every Wednesday at 4 pm), knows exactly what that means. Same religion, totally different culture. And at the heart of Saudi culture lies the unstoppable and unshakeable belief that they are always right. That belief is something of a barrier to any form of progressive improvement, ergo progress is slower than an asthmatic ant carrying some heavy shopping (with apologies to Capt Blackadder).
Saudi Arabia is not called the Magic Kingdom for nothing. The only real way to get your head round the bizarre contradictions of Saudi life is go there and visit. Not easy though, unless you are a muslim on the Haj, there is virtually no tourism in Saudi.
Can't get there. I recommend Inside the Kingdom by Robert Lacey.
One word...culture.
Straight from the horse's mouth (in this case a well-educated, wordly, Saudi software engineer.)
Rough quote...
"Westerners confuse religion and culture all the time. Saudi's have the same religion as a country such as Egypt, but the culture could not be more different."
By direct observation, Bahrain and Dharan are about 10 miles apart and joined by a whopping big bridge.
As you drive through the multi layer customs and immigration checks from Bahrain to Saudi you will read a big green sign that says...
"Welcome to Saudi Arabia. If you bring drugs into our country we will execute you."
As you drive from Saudi to Bahrain there is a sign which reads...
"Welcome to Bahrain. The fun starts here".
Anybody who has made that trip (which is pretty much most of Dharan, Saudi or Brit, every Wednesday at 4 pm), knows exactly what that means. Same religion, totally different culture. And at the heart of Saudi culture lies the unstoppable and unshakeable belief that they are always right. That belief is something of a barrier to any form of progressive improvement, ergo progress is slower than an asthmatic ant carrying some heavy shopping (with apologies to Capt Blackadder).
Saudi Arabia is not called the Magic Kingdom for nothing. The only real way to get your head round the bizarre contradictions of Saudi life is go there and visit. Not easy though, unless you are a muslim on the Haj, there is virtually no tourism in Saudi.
Can't get there. I recommend Inside the Kingdom by Robert Lacey.
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Previous experiences...
Although not in a fully professional capacity, I was lucky enough to partake in one weeks work experience at the Eurofighter simulator at RAF Coningsby. Although all of the pilots I met, both Saudi and British, were very approachable and friendly; while observing from the observation deck upstairs, the differences in training and proffessional ability were distinctly obvious.
I can re-call one or two times having to remind certain colonels and majors (RSAF) of their pre-flight/emeregency checks, never the less the entire week was enoyable, and re-assured me as to the abilities of our pilots over "certain others" after having a go at dog-fighting some of our new trainees in the FMS.
If any are reading, thanks for a great week
I can re-call one or two times having to remind certain colonels and majors (RSAF) of their pre-flight/emeregency checks, never the less the entire week was enoyable, and re-assured me as to the abilities of our pilots over "certain others" after having a go at dog-fighting some of our new trainees in the FMS.
If any are reading, thanks for a great week
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TBM-L
Israel and Saudi have been on the same end of most of the conflicts since 1948, as they have similar interests in the curbing of radical Arab regimes (Nasser, Asad) and of Iran / Iranian-inspired Shia islamism (Hamas, Hezbollah).
Saudi are especially concerned with Iran both as a direct competitor for control of the Gulf and the Straits of Hormuz, and as a potential rallying point for the Saudi Shia minority in the northern provinces (Daharan and the oilfields).
S41
Israel and Saudi have been on the same end of most of the conflicts since 1948, as they have similar interests in the curbing of radical Arab regimes (Nasser, Asad) and of Iran / Iranian-inspired Shia islamism (Hamas, Hezbollah).
Saudi are especially concerned with Iran both as a direct competitor for control of the Gulf and the Straits of Hormuz, and as a potential rallying point for the Saudi Shia minority in the northern provinces (Daharan and the oilfields).
S41
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BEagle
I recall it well. As his Flt Cdr I flew with Off/Cdt Mom*** on 24 Oct 73, and recommended his suspension from further training. In those days, protocol required that the foreign student then had to fly a 'confirmatory' trip with the Sqn Cdr.This took place on a dank Friday, and included a manual GCA approach to Shawbury - during which the T7 'dived' into a wood some two miles short of the runway. The subsequent BoI, which I was a part of, found that there was nothing to suggest that there was a fault with the aircraft. We were all left to draw our own conclusions. RIP Ron - lovely man.
I recall it well. As his Flt Cdr I flew with Off/Cdt Mom*** on 24 Oct 73, and recommended his suspension from further training. In those days, protocol required that the foreign student then had to fly a 'confirmatory' trip with the Sqn Cdr.This took place on a dank Friday, and included a manual GCA approach to Shawbury - during which the T7 'dived' into a wood some two miles short of the runway. The subsequent BoI, which I was a part of, found that there was nothing to suggest that there was a fault with the aircraft. We were all left to draw our own conclusions. RIP Ron - lovely man.
Last edited by jindabyne; 5th Nov 2010 at 23:25.
Presumably it wasn't politically acceptable to suggest that the little $od had committed suicide and murdered his QFI?
Not much time to fight for control at 600 ft, particularly with the high control column loads in manual. And who would have had the coolness to attempt to reach up and switch the power controls back on at such a late stage in the approach when the other pilot is determined to commit suicide by stuffing the nose earthwards?
Not much time to fight for control at 600 ft, particularly with the high control column loads in manual. And who would have had the coolness to attempt to reach up and switch the power controls back on at such a late stage in the approach when the other pilot is determined to commit suicide by stuffing the nose earthwards?