Royal Saudi Air Force - impressive toys, but are they any good?
 

Looking at the Saudi orbat, and at the recent massive orders for more F-15SAs, Apaches, Little Birds and Blackhawks, it's clear that the Saudis have plenty of great equipment. And with bags of high-priced help from contractors, and the impressive seeming Alsalam aircraft company, they ought to be pretty good.............

And yet the stories of incompetence and over-reliance on foreign contractors and 'loan officers' still seem prevalent.

Eg:

The Royal Saudi Air Force - A Paper Tiger, Minus the Tiger
The Royal Saudi Air Force - A Paper Tiger, Minus the Tiger

Misconceptions about the Royal Saudi Air Force as well as musings.
Misconceptions about the Royal Saudi Air Force as well as musings.

So what's the truth?

1) This was an accurate picture back then, and is accurate now.
2) This was an accurate picture back then, but things have improved and it is inaccurate now.
3) This was an accurate picture back then, but things have got even worse.
4) This contains elements of truth, but is fundamentally wrong.
5) This was an exaggerated picture back then, and is even less accurate now.
6) This was an inaccurate picture back then, and is even more inaccurate now.

Jackonicko: one of the backbones of the professional militaries in the West has always been the blue collar origin, professional NCO. When it comes to aircraft or other equipment maintenance, that goes double.

The cultural and social questions I have never gotten a satisfactory answer to has been what motivation a young Saudi man has to become a good jet mechanic, or a good airframes mechanic? What expectations does he have about his future, either as a career aircraft mech or doing a hitch and then heading back into society to do ... what?

I am sure there are many decent mechanics in Saudi. When I was in a few other middle eastern places, I noted plenty of small fix it shops run by locals. But maybe those folks in the fix it shop families prefer to not serve under the colors.

As to the pilot corps, my experiences with Saudis goes back to 80's and the few princelings in our training programs in the USN. Not relevant to the year 2010, I don't think, though a couple of them were decent sticks.

Worked with them on Red Flag with their F-15s. Short answer - No. Blue on blue and wouldn't admit any mistakes. Let off the hook by a USAF Colonel so they didn't lose face.

There are many cultural reasons why our Saudi friends have difficulty in performing to western standards but those that do are first rate.

It is perhaps better to compare them with their geographical counterparts because that is where they are most likely to need their skills.

Perhaps a more relevant question today is are they better than the Iranians?

Was that the '05 det Grumpy?

The Americans coming back from 12 month alfa tours with them reckon that they are marginally worse than the IqAF (by c.1991 standards) and would struggle against the IrAF today. Of course, against the IDF there would be no contest.

A friend of mine kept an online diary of his one year tour as an FTU IP on the F-15S. Buffoonery abounded. It was hilarious.

Willard

Yes it was. They were given a Mission Lead and screwed up royaly. However, their CAS was visiting and our USAF hosts decided to gloss over their inadequacies for political reasons. When we threatened to pull the tapes to prove how bad they were we were effectively told to be quiet. Very annoying

The Saudis need not worry - they can rely upon the Israelis to protect them from Iran.

Saudis give nod to Israeli raid on Iran - Times Online

Hi Jacko,

I worked with them three years ago. As already mentioned, it is hard to compare like with like as the cultural differences (which impact at every aspect of command in Saudi) are just too wide.

On a more practical note, at the aircrew level the biggest difference is one of variation (which becomes so apparent when you try to teach them). The RAF and other Western military air forces have a bottom line/level for each job. An RAF fast jet jockey is going to be some where between pretty damn good and excellent. (I'm not a pilot, you cannot believe how painful it is to type that!). Some Saudi pilots are very good (I know because some pretty good ex RAF pilots out there hold the same view). On the other hand, if the name is right, the dude gets a job, so there is no bottom line and some of them are.........hopeless.

I have no experience of working with the engineers, but again I know some pretty good guys who have and they seem to think without western input, the whole thing would fall apart.

The Saudi ops guys I worked with were what the US used to call "warm bodies".

One thing in your linked article that really chimes. If a western contractor teaches a Saudi something and he subsequently screws up, it is the contractor that is in deep pooh since it will be considered entirely his fault that the Saudi didn't learn what he was supposed too. Given that the attendence on my course was about 80 percent and several guys just turned up and went to sleep (try teaching Saudi aircrew something they don't want to learn during Ramadam), it is easy to be on a hiding to nothing.

In my view, after spending six months out there as a contractor, they could deliver a kicking to a local adversary as long as that adversary has very limited capabilities and as long as somebody else maintains their fleets and weapons.

Their biggest drawback is their cultural rejection of blame and fault. Its hard to see how any society/organisation can develop in that environment, however it should be recognised that they are committed to "Saudisation" and they have ruling monarch who very much believes it is possible. Massive timescale methinks.

Did 6 1/2 years in sunny Riyadh, and can vouch for the above comments.
When I came back to Oz I was convinced such character traits only existed in Arabic and Asian cultures. Unfortunately I have to admit that it's starting to creep in here too.

There are lots of cultures have no concept of blame/fault/self analysis/personal reflection. Ever tried working with Nigerians?

My experience is that ONLY countries that 'benefit' from the fear / shame / guilt of christianity (even if people latterly turn to atheism) have such introspection. I must modify that - it's not all correct - I think that when people have also been brought up with essentially a Greek philosophy background and a faith in empirical testing and analysis. ah - lets combine the two; then you get this desire to correct and improve - and the culture to do so.

Why Arabs Lose Wars :: Middle East Quarterly

this one did the rounds a few years back. Very interesting read.

Sunk

Interesting analysis. Clear interpretation based on that was cut off the head and the body doesn't react but also depends on the circumstances as well as someone defending their homeland with nothing to lose fights different than someone defending a spot in a foreign field.

Having lived and flown in Saudi, I can certainly agree on all that has been said so far. KSA has without doubt the potential to be a Middle Eastern superpower, and a key player on the world stage through it's shear influance and economic might.

However, the cultural and sociological issues thay have are extremly significant hurdles, and these will need to be addressed first. It will take a serious push for change, which will always be held back buy the more conservtive Saudis.

I think that a positive change is happening within Saudi Arabia but it will be an excrutiatingly slow process, and will have a timeline measured in several decades at least.

Couldn't possibly comment re: the Arabs - they're a mystery to me - but as someone mentioned Asians... I think you have it with the 'complete inability to accept blame' cultural aspect for the Vietnamese.

However, this failing is mitigated in conflict situations with a corresponding 'complete inability to accept when we're being thrashed stupid' .

A cultural flaw which seems to work out in our favour sometimes.

I have some nice photos of Saudi Tornado ADVs from Gulf War 1 - as they rolled out in front of the tanker and slowly drifted back into echelon...:hmm:

And Jacko, on the subject of photos, where are the irreplaceable slides I loaned you several years ago and which you promised faithfully would be returned? Please send them back without further delay!

BEagle, I'll chase the publisher again.

J

I heard some horror stories from GW 1, including RAF pilots refusing to fly with brainless Saudi's.

Closer to home, what the hell has happened to spelling and grammar ?

It seems the difference between 'there' and 'their' especially is quickly becoming optional !

I worked in Saudi for a while in the mid 70's on the engineering side (Lightnings); I was also an OJT instructor. The mindset that was faced when dealing with our OJT cadets (newly promoted to Warrant Officers on graduation from Technical Training, without so much as getting a pair of hands dirty) was much like observed in many posts here in 2010. I used to think very much like the poster above; yet here we are, 35 years or so down the track, and it would seem not much has changed. Sad.