Future of the FAA

[Tallsar]

Check out CAS's statement TC....although my take would be that a future RAF owned Merlin fleet will take on board a bigger complement of FAA junglies to keep the Amphib expertise going.....and so it should...it is the JHC after all!!!

[Occasional Aviator]

There was a clear statement that 3 Cdo Bde would have a (primarily) heliborne capability. So it will need to be either Merlin or Chinook that does it after 2014. As ever, the colour of the uniform of the guys flying is largely immaterial; you develop an ethos by doing the task. It's just a question of whether we'll resource the task properly - and with so few helicopters, I'm a bit concerned it will be smoke and mirrors. A bit like trying to generate a meaningful Carrier Strike capability with only 10 FE@R. Not a pop at carrier strike, just a sad reflection that if we are going to do it, we ought to do it properly.

[Tallsar]

I feel sure you appreciate it was ever thus OA......right back to the 1960s it goes..when the total UK size of the tri-service SH fleet was "capped" at Brigade lift capacity.......never made it in those days particularly after the first UK CH47 buy was canned....but at least we have got a lot closer now. Its concurrent high tempo ops that screw us of course ......particularly when helo lift becomes so essential all the time tomnimise casualties- asymetric warfare was not thought of in those far off days......we never learn do we?

[matelo99]

Over the last 3 days we at Yeovilton have received numerous briefings on what will happen post SDSR. A Brief precis is this:
1. The RAF Brief was a typo they will hand over Merlin by 2016. (Admitted by CAS after being questioned on wednesday)
2. Sea King 4 and 7 gone in 2016.
3. Merlin 3/3A flown by CHF from 2016.
4. Merlin 4 (Marinised) introduced in about 2018.

However, the caveat to all this is the final decision is still to be made, apparently yet another bun fight is to be had just before christmas. Oh the joys of interservice politics...

The Briefs were given by 1SL, CO CHF, ACOS(AV)

[iRaven]

Blimey, that's some typo! Was the Puma mod program also a typo, otherwise Benson is toast!

[TheWizard]

A lot can happen in 6 years (or indeed 6 months!)

[Vie sans frontieres]

No, the Pumas are tomorrow's claim by the CHF. Yesterday they were having the RAF's Merlins. This morning they were having Chinooks (until the thread was deleted) and tomorrow it'll be Pumas.

[Trim Stab]

Inter-Service bickering about who does what between RAF and RN is really rather myopic and tiresome.

Any RAF/RN officer who is looking for a long career should be lobbying for an exchange with the AdA or Aéronavale, or start learning French privately, because whether you like it or not, that is where the long term future lies.

[Torque limited]

Inter-service bickering

I have just read this thread with interest, and wonder why it has degenerated so quickly into a willy waving competition?

SDSR has hit the RAF and RN particularly hard. I can't quite work out how the Army have got away so lightly in manpower terms? The Army are losing only around 5% of their workforce when the RAF and RN have lost more like 15%. With over 100,000 personnel, and only around 8,000 ever deployed at any one time, how did the Army pull this off? What do the other 95 odd thousand personnel do?!

The Truth

The truth is this: Ask ANYONE who has served on the ground over the last 50 years, who they would like, and who they could rely on to get them out of the when they needed it. The answer is the Junglies. Quite rightly so there is a lot of value on the 'can do' attitude they hold.


The RAF CH force have done a fantastic job in Afghan in the last few years, using a very capable aircraft in tough conditions, and they are building themselves a good reputation for reliability and willingness to go the extra yard.

The ME force are the 'new boys' in the Afghanistan theatre, and they are yet to earn their spurs. Unfortunately they have potentially written off 2 aircraft from the ORBAT already.

So what to do with the Merlin aircraft post SDSR?

If the decision is purely a financial one, then there appears some merit in keeping the status quo and leaving them at Benson.

However, if you dig a little deeper, it becomes obvious very quickly that the output from a CHF unit is exponentially higher than an RAF unit. For example a member (aircrew or engineer) of CHF will probably be deployed for, on average, 40% of their time, either on exercise, training, or in theatre. This compares with around 20% for their RAF SH counterparts. CHF personnel deploy one in four (one on, three off) for Afghanistan, and still have to complete non-operational commitments in their 'spare' time. An RAF member will deploy for perhaps 3 months in theatre, and then have 15 months 'off' (without having to maintain currencies post theatre)

Q. Which units from JHC contributed to Exercise Auriga at the same time as maintaining their enduring theatre commitment?
A. Commando Helicopter Force

This may well be down to RAF units quite rightly looking after their personnel, and having a far less rigorous deployment schedule, however on a value-for-money basis the RN personne deliver far more per person than their RAF SH counterparts.

SDSR was never a strategic review, merely a cost cutting exercise. However, as an independent observer, I think the idea of losing the Commando Helicopter Force, their experience, ethos, productivity and ability as the most competent operators of SH aircraft is absolutely incredulous.

Therefore this is probably what will happen.

Lets hope the Argentinians don't start heading towards Stanley again, as this time we will really be raiding a bare cupboard.

[Unchecked]

What absolute twaddle.

15 months between dets for RAF SH ? Are you serious ? I think you need to get real, research properly and refrain from talking about an area you clearly have no idea about.

[TheWizard]

An RAF member will deploy for perhaps 3 months in theatre, and then have 15 months 'off' (without having to maintain currencies post theatre)

Torque Limited knowledge
You are of course joking?? Aren't you??
Where on earth do you get those figures from??
(Most people on my Sqn are on their 2nd det within a 12 month period)

Given your location and words it seems obvious which colour uniform you wear so your bias is understandable. However, when you start out commenting on 'willy waving' and go on to state somewhat tainted information and inaccuracies surely you are just waving something around too?? And rather obviously to boot.

[LateArmLive]

An RAF member will deploy for perhaps 3 months in theatre, and then have 15 months 'off' (without having to maintain currencies post theatre

Not just "Torque" limited, I suggest.......

[RTM]

I am willing to bet that I am among the many (both RAF Merllin force & CHF) who are fed up with this incessant bickering. I will state upfront that I am a member of the Merlin force and so of course want the Merlin to remain RAF - I am not a turkey thinking Christmas is a good time of year.

That said I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theorists who thing that the RAF has played a clever game to rid the FAA of aviation - if for no other reason that the majority of the RAF SH fleet did / do feel forgotten by the ME/FJ world. But what does really bite is the posts that seek to denigrate the efforts of the Merlin force. Yes we are (and therefore always will be) the new boys in Afghan, and yes we are learning, but comments stating we have lost 2 aircraft in theatre (apart from being factually wrong) is deeply misleading - look back over the last few years in both Afghanistan and Iraq and tell me that CHF (and RAF SH of course) have never made a mistake...

As for the comments we only spend 20% of our time deployed compared to 40% for CHF, if my JPA adds up I (and most others on my flight) have spent over 40% of the last two years - as far as i could be bothered to be go back- away on deployment and exercises. Contrary to belief we do not spend our time not bothering to go flying unless we have a glorious hotel booked. Indeed CHF if/when the inherit a smaller number of green Merlin airframesthey may realise it is not quite the Christmas present they thought they were getting!

Seriously though this is not a whinge at any particular group - I have a great respect for the SK chaps and hope it is reciprocated. At the end of the day the situation we are in is not of our making and ideally both forces would be supported - wishful thinking says this might happen.

[Vie sans frontieres]

Torque limited

Are you an estate agent or do you sell double glazing? Whichever, you're well trained and you've earnt the October PPrize for spouting the biggest load of drivel on the forum. Independent observer my @rse!

[high spirits]

Torque Limited,
You are right, the decision will probably be driven by finance. That does not make it right, but we are stone cold broke to the tune of £38 billion. Your facts are very skewed but I'm sure you know that by now from some of the vitriol that has come your way. The serviceability and amount of tasking arguments are incomparable. 2 different aircraft from 2 different generations. The 35 trained RAF crews have, however, earned their spurs(as you put it) in theatre and have done a damn fine job.

If value for money is your argument then you lose aswell. The Merlin pilot is infinately cheaper to train. Sims are still expensive but compare the OCU costs. Approx 5% of jungly sim to 95% aircraft time on the course. Merlin, 2/3rds sim to 1/3 ac time. Compare hours flown per year in the ac versus the sim for both fleets and you will find that the established Merlin crews are much better value for money.

Incidentally, I don't believe in the willy waving. I think the junglies do a damn good job with limited resource. I don't however believe that the ethos is any different.

However, JHC already has 35 trained Merlin crews.....

[Widger]

To be fair, he has a point. RN Harmony rules are far more rigorous than the other two services FACT. RN harmony is 660 days over a three year roling period which is why harmony is rarely broken. Both the RAF and Army have lower levels, which is why they are broken more often and also why, SDSR will almost certainly bring those two services in line with the RN. This is how a lot of the manpower will be saved, by deploying people for longer means you need less to support a campaign.

Army harmony guidelines are that individuals should not exceed 415 days of separated service in any period of 30 months. At unit level, tour intervals should be no less than 24 months. The decision on who should deploy is made by Joint Commitments in consultation with Headquarters Land Command, ratified by the chain of command.
Royal Navy harmony guidelines are that no individual should exceed 660 days of separated service in a three-year rolling period. Over a similar time span, ships or other units should not be deployed for more than 60 per cent. of their time.
Harmony Guidelines for the RAF are based on formed unit tour intervals rather than individual personnel, whereby formed units, or sub-elements within them should spend four months on deployed operations followed by 16 months at base.
The RAF Individual Separated Service assumption is that an individual should spend no more than 140 days of duty detached away from home in a rolling 12-month period. This allows for a four-month operational tour followed by three weeks of separated service due to routine tasks, unestablished commitments, unit assistance, pre-detachment training etc.
These are guidelines only and there will be shorter tour intervals where operational demands require it

[Widger]

It is well acknowledged that Harmony rules are not the same. The 660/3 rule means that someone under RN rules, which I believe includes the RM, can spend over 600 days deployed in two years as long as the following year, they are at home. That is the subtle difference. It is also acknowledged that the Army and RAF are finding it hard to remain within harmony rules, so rather than spend money employing more people, just change the rules.

Unchecked, whilst you talk about spending half your year away, that is not unusual in the RN. I hope that in the changes it is recognised that spending your op tour in a ditch, warfighting is different to being sat in Butlins at KAF or the 'Deid" as applying 660/3 to the Infantry, will result in severe problems.

There has been lots of chat about platforms, arguments over Harrier, Carriers, Tanks but the real Alligator will be the New Employment Model. That is what people should be concerned about as those who are not fortunate enough to get redundancy, will be serving in a military, totally different from the one which they have been accustomed to. It will be all about getting more out of less and if someone is not deployable, to the maximum extent, then they will be got rid of in my very humble opinion.

[Non Emmett]

Reading these pages is pretty sobering these days and my respect and regard for those still serving Queen and Country continues to grow. I've no wish to opffer up opinions as I value reading those far better informed than I can ever hope to be as a civvie but I have one question - there is much informed discussion on the squadrons but overall what is the likely impact on Culdrose and Yeovilton over the next few years ?

[Unchecked]

A few years ago harmony didn't exist at all, but since the introduction of Fight By Flight, it's fair to say that harmony is now alive and kicking and, more importantly, it works.

So we're going to fix this unbroken system by doing what the Navy do?

[163627]

Hawkeye, Merlin or nothing?

Now that we are officially heading towards a "proper" cat and trap capability; what will the future be for martime AEW? Will it be stick with the compromise Merlin option? Borrow Hawkeyes from the USN or French (though with Flottille 4F only having three airframes not much scope there!), or hopefully dig deep and buy a few Hawkeyes ourselves? If we do go for a "buy" will the RAF bag them or will 849 NAS return to fixed wing flying? Or will we just kick it into the long grass and go for another capability "holiday"