Future of the FAA

[sweep complete]

If defence of the realm means best option is selling your blokes down the river, and you are brave enough to do it, do you expect your blokes to accept their redundancies and say, but he was a good bloke, he put country before his troops?

PN - that's my point; his job, all of their jobs, should be to offer sound advice to idiot politicians on how to best defend the UK and it's interests... keeping 'your blokes' sweet or looking to come out of it as a 'good bloke' in the eyes of your cronies, and sod the capability gap, is pathetic.

My opinion here (and I'm able to cope with the fact that's all it is!)... I believe it has been a long term aim of the RAF hierarchy to remove the FAA from fixed wing aviation and it looks like they've achieved it!

[high spirits]

Thick ex-truckie,
Jungly/Junglie = RN/RM Commando Helicopter Force Aircrew. Organic helo crew for the booties (Royal Marines - before you ask!).

[MaroonMan4]

The Perfect Storm

This is brilliant,

I must be honest in that I was slightly embarrassed when the whole Torpy v RN Fixed Wing/Carrier debate was going on, but it now looks pure genius. Not only have we managed to 'slam dunk' the RN FAA fixed wing community (forever),we are about to do the same with their amphibious rotary community.

So far they have hidden behind an RN 2* at Cap ALM and an RN 2* at JHC, both I am sure good people and truly Joint. But what they didn't expect was the RAF light blue machine to very cleverly out wit and completely out play all of them to ensure the continuance of light blue control of things that fly.

When the next Comd JHC takes over (who is.....wait for it....RAF) then I give CHF 5, maybe 6 years (when does the Sea King go? When do we pull out of Afghanistan?) before it is absorbed into a 'Joint' Maritime Force at RAF Benson (under the already established RAF SHF HQ).

I will wager that CHF will never recover from this, and even with all of the best work that Navy Command and CHF can muster they will not be able to convince us (or the bean counters) to give up our Merlins.

Possession is 9/10 ths of the law, and tell me how many Jungly pilots for RWS transition instructors they have,one or two maximum I am led to believe - lets just call it quits and call them exchange pilots until they transfer.

My advice to any CHF pilot is to jump ship early - of course we are going to need a bit of maritime experience to get the Freaks up to speed for embarked ops, but we in the Chinook fleet do it well enough when required. But if you do not jump soon, then it will be too late, as we do not need all of the CHF aircrew to bolster our Merlin fleet that is for sure.

A well thought through and very clever method of ensuring our primacy of the air - my previous embarrassment is replaced by respect for some very astute and forward thinking work.

[teeteringhead]

MaroonMan

exactly so! And you are the first on this plethora of SDSR threads to have identified it!!

Per Ardua!

[Junglydaz]

Were you around when the Chinny took its rear undercarriage off by missing Ocean's flight deck (and that is a fairly big target!).

[Tallsar]

A below the belt cheap shot JDaz!....I suspect a review of 55 years of CHF ship ops might reveal some very interesting reading! Point being of course, that we all know (those of us of any service who have done it) that decks are interesting and demanding places....and even with the most professional efforts, things can rapidly overtake anyone........so lets keep the stone throwing for our spin doctoring political masters who think grossly expensive Puma upgardes are worth more to the defence of the nation than very capable Maritme ISTAR platforms (£3.5 Bn already spent!) that also can deliver precision weapons over extreme ranges...RIP MRA4

PS The loss of the MRA4 was no doubt a great belowto the above mentioned "if it flies keep it RAF" strategy.....by default the FAA now is the sole possessor of an ASW and dedicated maritime ISTAR capability!

[Something witty]

Quote: Can we really justify a bespoke CHF? Seconded. CHF has been (apart from the odd amphibious exercise) a land-based SH force for the past twenty odd years.

How short (or selective) are some people's memories - GW1 (1991) GW2 - Al Faw assault? (2003) or maybe Sierra Leone (2000) So CHF should, by your reasoning, be sacrificed because we allowed ourselves, between amphibious OPS, and amphibious exercises, to stray ashore to assist the RM & Army?

It would be sad to see the end of the junglie ethos and spirit - but bigger sacrifices have already been made. Agreed, and dare I say it would be a significant loss to the UK's defence capability and to the RM and Army were it to go.

The FAA small-ships flights are an integral part of the ship's weapon systems and need naval aircrew - but that is not the case with CHF . CHF have striven to maintain an Amphibious capability over the last few years despite continuous Telic and Herrick commitment - The RAF would undoubtedly have had little interest in this were it holding the amphibious capability itself, lets face it, a certain service's RW units have routinely allowed themselves to go night uncurrent in the UK between Afghan tours - if they can't be trusted to maintain basic flying skills how can we expect them to maintain a complex Operational capability?

Whilst CHF is undoubtedly not at the peak of its ultimate amphibious capability, there is the depth of knowledge and the extensive background within the organization as well as the training that means that long periods of ops ashore, such as seen recently, do not jeopardise the amphibious piece as severely - the operational amphibious experience of the more senior a/c captains on CHF streaches back through Al Faw, Sierra Leone and beyond not to mention that of our engineers, chockheads and loggies - it's not just aircrew sh!t - its how the whole unit integrates, works with and understands the ship, how they understand and work with you. CHF can fall back on that knowledge, what will the RAF fall back on when they've been thrashed around the globe and suddenly we need an amphibious assault with them having never gained the experience or let what little was established fade to nothing?

It is interesting to note the RAF's take on the move of Merlin to CHF and the RN. I suspect that the RAF PR machine (there's something that could be cut for the common good) is furiously peddling this new line now that the carriers are secure but victory has been won on Harrier.

I don't love CHF per se - the work load is high and we have next to no support doing everything ourselves (very lean - no ops support staff for example - the RAF have got some good ideas... though maybe not in these times and it's so we can fit on a ship) - however, I will defend to the hilt the capability and Junglie ethos - the cunning and can-do spirit that is applied whenever anyone needs support - that is ingrained in us and we thrive on the opportunity to apply it on ops for the greater good. That Junglie ethos won't survive unless we are kept separate and it is certainly not something that can be replaced or transfered.

Quote: Can we really justify a bespoke CHF?

Pull back from the myopia of Afghanistan and you will realise that GW1, Bosnia, Sierra Leone, GW2 and the extraction of Brit Nationals from Beiruit all happened on, or very close to coastal waters and either involved the use of RN carriers and / or amphibious ships and / or the SK4, Lx7 and Gaz that now come under CHF, either based on board or ashore - so nearly every post cold war conflict bar Afghan
has either involved an Amphibious Op or has been in a location that would have made it possible. What have Iran and Korea got a lot of, dare I ask?! What's that statistic? 80% of the world's population live within 100 miles of the sea? Where does most of our oil come from? Not precise but the gist is certainly true.

Given that we have operated in a secondary role as SH for so long and have a pretty respectable reputation, surely, if it's a 'them or us' then the question should be somewhat different:

How can you justify keeping the RAF Merlin squadrons as they can only bring an SH capability to the party?

We should retain the battle proven Amphibious capability, expertise, Junglie ethos and spirit of an independent RN / RM Commando Helicopter Force as they are leaner than RAF Sqns yet more than capable of acting as SH in their spare time between Amphibious Ops and Ex. CHF's PR machine is well driven but small and as an organization and individuals we prefer to get on with the job in hand rather than shout about it. Unfortunately, this approach, which I have enormous sympathy with, does us no favours in this treacherous time. Forgive me then for this one quote, from a (RAF) head-shed in JHF(A) recently:

"The Sea King 4s are our least capable airframes flown by our most capable crews"

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather see there be an uplift in Chinook numbers so the RAF Merlin force could work Chinook instead - I see no justification in binning any SH Sqns, indeed I disagree with any of the cuts to any service - but I'll be buggered if I'm not going to defend CHF and our RN / RM heritage when we do all that any RAF SH sqn does on ops and yet still deliver a battle-proven Amphibious capability as well all with fewer resources.

[LFFC]

I couldn't help but wonder at this comment in the Telegraph:

But the cuts to the Navy could have been worse and its worth bearing in mind if it does get enough Joint Strike Fighters to fly off the carriers by 2020 then it will once again carry considerable clout. In the meantime it is vital to keep the former Harrier pilots employed with either the US or French navies so they do not lose vital skills.

I suspect that the RN pilots who will fly JSF in the future are probably still at school.

[Something witty]

The Perfect Storm
This is brilliant,

I must be honest in that I was slightly embarrassed when the whole Torpy v RN Fixed Wing/Carrier debate was going on, but it now looks pure genius. Not only have we managed to 'slam dunk' the RN FAA fixed wing community (forever),we are about to do the same with their amphibious rotary community.

So far they have hidden behind an RN 2* at Cap ALM and an RN 2* at JHC, both I am sure good people and truly Joint. But what they didn't expect was the RAF light blue machine to very cleverly out wit and completely out play all of them to ensure the continuance of light blue control of things that fly.

When the next Comd JHC takes over (who is.....wait for it....RAF) then I give CHF 5, maybe 6 years (when does the Sea King go? When do we pull out of Afghanistan?) before it is absorbed into a 'Joint' Maritime Force at RAF Benson (under the already established RAF SHF HQ).

I will wager that CHF will never recover from this, and even with all of the best work that Navy Command and CHF can muster they will not be able to convince us (or the bean counters) to give up our Merlins.

Possession is 9/10 ths of the law, and tell me how many Jungly pilots for RWS transition instructors they have,one or two maximum I am led to believe - lets just call it quits and call them exchange pilots until they transfer.

My advice to any CHF pilot is to jump ship early - of course we are going to need a bit of maritime experience to get the Freaks up to speed for embarked ops, but we in the Chinook fleet do it well enough when required. But if you do not jump soon, then it will be too late, as we do not need all of the CHF aircrew to bolster our Merlin fleet that is for sure.

A well thought through and very clever method of ensuring our primacy of the air - my previous embarrassment is replaced by respect for some very astute and forward thinking work .

MM (& TH)
Ok, I'll bite.

Perhaps your first instinct should return?

I don't agree with interservice rivalry of the destructive nature, particularly in public, however needs must.


There is no more serious a matter than the Defence of the UK, our population and our interests, at home and abroard. Across the Forces we all have our beliefs in how well we do our job and how important our roles are - these are pushed up the chain, prioritised, and we continue to exist or we get scrapped; its an imperfect system in an imperfect world.

Where the system really falls down is when an individual service turns it's guns on the capabilites of another Service with the express and sole aim of empire building for it's own, single service benefit with no solid justification to satisfy the 'common good.'

The whole language of the RAF, their incessant PR spin and approach to the RN FW and latterly RW assets (AAC's assets too) has been to seek to deny the RN and Army of those assets and capabilities for the sole benefit of the RAF with no discernible benefit (and many severe disadvantages) for the Defence of the UK.

It's not just my job, it's the jobs of all the others, Engineers, loggies and Aircrew... but it's far more than that too - the lives of those who have already died and those who will die or be wounded, on the ground and at sea, because the RAF can not help itself from meddling in the well established and life-saving operational capabilities of the other Services.

So, think again - are you not embarrassed by the concerted and treasonous actions of your 'service' over the years to remove or reduce the capabilities of the other two Services at the cost of capability and lives or have you no basic morals?

Call me a bluff old traditionalist but I always thought that, aside from all the funny things that happen, ultimately we are trained on expensive machines not for our own benefit but for that of others, sadly a fact that appears lost on some members of the RAF - here's more of a Junglie perspective of the serious side to what we do:

Service flying (and thus for us, Service life) is about getting the very best you can achieve from your airframe whilst mitigating the risks in order to best assist those in need on the ground - everything you and your crew, engineers etc do is with that express aim.

You work for the blokes on the ground, - that means you log hours airborne, not additional hours sat on a refuel spot at BSN - you might have joined to get hours to go commercial but tough, you are NOT there for your 'BA Tokens' to log those hours is to rob them of their ammunition, water, food, bags to sh** in and perhaps most importantly the mail from their family that they've not received for weeks.

When blokes are seeing or hearing of their mate's blown up or shot in front of them on a near daily basis and yet still continue to patrol out of the gate or sit in a sangar every day for no other reason than not wanting to let down their oppos, you don't even think about getting or awarding a gong for the act of just doing your job.... even if its 'done well' a few times... he or she wont get anything for just doing theirs well for nigh on six months

It also means that, although the JHC FOB didn't state until recently 'thou shalt maintain night currencey' you don't take that as leave to sack off night flying between tours as that is dangerous and reduces capability and increases threat (not least because of subsequent Crab embarrassment that has in the past prevented them from allowing the Junglies (who have always maintained night currency and also continue to practice night dust landings to more severe light levels) to crack on to get the job done at night - further 'service' politics getting in the way of capability).

It means going to the RAF Armourer at BSN and requesting a refresher for door gunners and Aircrewman on the GPMG strip and clean so as to better understand the problems and ways we can ensure damage is recognised early or prevented so we preserve limited stocks of spares and give ourselves and our oppos the best chance should we need to fire. (he was surprised but pleased to see the RN/RM- the RAF just gave him dirty knackered weapons they kept breaking whilst continuing to ignore his advise)

Rant over.

[high spirits]

Something Witty/LFFC,
I agree with your analysis(and I am crab SH by the way). Slagging off night currency and the Chinny force just brings too much emotion into the arguement and we all know what a fantastic job each force does/has done on Ops. What we have now is the right mix of helos for the job. Maroon Man was simply goading you - and you both fell for it.

However, the elephant in the room remains, ............who takes the redundancies that are coming our way, the RN or the RAF; and who bears the enormous cost of re-training not one, but 2 helicopter forces, whilst trying to maintain Ops in AFG? I can tell you now, there is simply not the infrastructure/money to do this. Speak to most of the Mk3 community, and they will tell you that they don't want to go to the banana. What do you do with the sim post conversion. CAe and SerCo must be rubbing their hands with the number of zeros they are about to add to the bill if they have to move to Somerset. 35 RAF Mk3/3a crews into 25 ac does not leave enough hours for everyone at the moment, so how will 42 Jungly crews solve the problem. Marinisation will add a significant amount of weight to an already underpowered helicopter. There is no roping platform for MCT, the list goes on.

Bad blood between the Junglies and the RAF SH community does no-one any good. This is not an attempt to hi-jack SH by CAS, it is simply the stark reality of what we are both faced with.

[MaroonMan4]

High Spirits,

You were right, it was a tad unfair and I know that CHF and the Junglies must be feel very vulnerable at the moment.

But, Something Witty does nothing but rant - there is no solid evidence or well argued case that both he in his post or any of his brethren can do to save CHF. They should have seen the writing on the wall with the Newton Study (where they thought incorrectly as it transpires that a load of waffle about FAA deck hands and executive air appointments would save their Harrier/Fixed WIng community). As we can see RWS is still on paper, with virtually no quantifiable CHF input to any transition that is meant to start next year. Quite simply they missed the boat (forgive pun) with Harrier, and they are now staring at each other in disbelief as they realise that they have done the same with CHF.

As everyone recognises the CHF aircrew are probably one of the most well trained and broadly operationally experienced rotary crews that Defence/JHC has (hence why I suggested that the Freaks would benefit from a few of them 'jumping ship; (forgive the pun again). Sadly though, when we are in so much debt, lets get this fact clear - do the Treasury (or Land Budgeteers) care 2 hoots who flies the Merlin, they just want the cheapest option.

In the current economic climate (forecast out until at least 2020) the cheapest option by far to deliver amphibious rotary lift to the Royal Marines is RAF SH. based at Odiham and Benson.

Now, if Navy Command and/or CHF can forward a reasoned and rational argument for them to justly (and efficiently) take over our Merlins, then I am all ears, but Something Witty's post relying on the conceptual esoterics of 'jungly ethos' and nostalgia does not a well balanced or robust argument make.


All very sad - but lets now stop deceiving ourselves and do something with this elephant in the room before morale and more wasted effort is made. Lets acknowledge the drawdown of CHF and let JHC conduct a well balanced and well timed RWS transition ensuring that where possible those CHF crews, engineers and staff that add value are absorbed into the RAF to deliver defence an RAF SH lift capability across all environments.

[Tourist]

Maroon Man

The plan before the review was for the Merlin to come to the RN.

Where in the review do you see any mention of a change to this plan?

Before you start saying this is a fait accompli, perhaps wait to see what happens?

The Admiral who spoke to us yesterday certainly believes that we are still getting the Mk3s as planned.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by high spirits

What do you do with the sim post conversion. CAe and SerCo must be rubbing their hands with the number of zeros they are about to add to the bill if they have to move to Somerset.

There is a tradition of leaving the sims in situ and for aircrew to go to the sim not the sim to the aircraft.

The F3 OCU move saw the studes travelling from Leuchars to Coningsby.

Another reason for not moving sims is that the instructors tend not to want to move either.

[Type1106]

High Spirits

Many thanks - I thought I knew most of the dark blue boy's slang but that one passed me by1
1106

[WhyNavy]

Maroonman is right. Well said.

[orgASMic]

Comd JHC announced yesterday that Merlin Mk4 ('marinised' Mk3/3a) will still go to CHF.

[Vie sans frontieres]

Amphibious Capability?

A distinction has been made by Something Witty between the capabilities of RAF SH and the Amphibious Capability of the CHF. RAF SH have been getting airborne off ships and dropping the troops and equipment on land for years. If that's not the route taken by an amphibian, I don't know what is. Someone please explain the difference because I can't see it.

[NURSE]

Given that most of the Joint helicopter stuff and future Helicopter stuff came in the Army fact sheets and the Chinook order was mentioned in relation to Army I wonder if maroonman4's triumphilism may be short lived?

Yes JHC is a land asset as is 3 Cdo brigade.

[high spirits]

Pontius,
I'm no subject matter expert, but the present Mk3 OCF is about 2/3rds sim based. That makes training 42 crews, and then sustaining an OCF and frontline very expensive in terms of transport and Hotels. The messes at Benson are slightly less chocka than Jordan's brassiere. The plan that I have seen will have the sim moving to Somerset.
Tourist,
What has changed? 12 not 22 chinook. Less Puma 2 than assumed in RW strategy. Not enough cockpits for all. Therefore, P45s for some. Asking CAS to tell some of the Mk3 community that they are to be made redundant so that CHF can take their ac is like getting a turkey to vote for Christmas.

JHC already have 35 trained Mk3/3a crews........

With every single desert exercise to prepare crews for Ops under some severe scrutiny, and the country's Defence Budget £38 billion sausage side, are we really about to embark(excuse the pun) on what is a costly re-branding exercise and re-train 77 crews whilst trying to sustain Ops?

Folly

[TheWizard]

To quote the Chief of the Air Staff:

•The requirement for, and the invaluable role of, the Royal Air Force Support Helicopter fleets is visible to all of us on a daily basis, particularly in Afghanistan and relatively recently in Iraq. The intention, therefore, is to enhance our SH capability with the purchase of 12 more Chinook and the significant upgrade of 24 Puma helicopters which, together with the extant Merlin force, will continue to see the Royal Air Force providing a critical and expanded element of Air Power to meet the wide variety of tasks/operations that will face us in this decade and beyond.

The Review will lead to a force structure in 2020 broadly based on the following:
Combat ISTAR capability comprised of:

• Typhoon and JSF
• E-3D, AIRSEEKER (Rivet Joint) and SCAVENGER (RPAS)
A modern, capable strategic and tactical airlift fleet of:
• 14 A330
• 7 C-17
• 22 A-400M
A strengthened battlefield lift capability consisting of:
• 60 Chinook
• 25 Merlin
• 24 Puma

Read into that what you will.