Defence Review - Headlines
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Just a small point, if the Harrier is to be scrapped what happens to the 540 million paid to BAe for the life support of the aircraft, do they get to pay it back 
As others have said, those still serving are going to suffer and this will be a whole lot worse than before. When you now add up the effects of the last 15 - 20 years things do not look good and I am thankful that there are still those willing to put up with numpty seniors, inept MP's, old and tired equipment, poor housing, crappy pay (compared to what you can earn), blah, blah blah.....
Good luck to us all, were gonna need it!
How long before the likes of the stalled ECA-Program actually become a reality and then end up taking on a more 'active' role and the Air Force can no longer carry out its own role.
To sum it up in the words of the Messenger addressing King Leonidas:
This is madness
As others have said, those still serving are going to suffer and this will be a whole lot worse than before. When you now add up the effects of the last 15 - 20 years things do not look good and I am thankful that there are still those willing to put up with numpty seniors, inept MP's, old and tired equipment, poor housing, crappy pay (compared to what you can earn), blah, blah blah.....
Good luck to us all, were gonna need it!
How long before the likes of the stalled ECA-Program actually become a reality and then end up taking on a more 'active' role and the Air Force can no longer carry out its own role.
To sum it up in the words of the Messenger addressing King Leonidas:
This is madness
Are we really spending all that money on an aircraft carrier only to have it serve for three years and for it only to be used as a glorified platform for heli ops?? Sounds to me like the navy brass wanted these ships come what may, and regardless of the actual capability they deliver and the impact of their procurement on the surface fleet as a whole.
The 'thinking' behind this review appears to be terribly muddled.
PS Any mention re the Puma fleet?
The 'thinking' behind this review appears to be terribly muddled.
PS Any mention re the Puma fleet?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
SM, money spent is money gone.
As Cottesmore was already going to close, another 'advantage' in disbanding the Harrier force is the saving in rebasing them at Wittering and building a new mess there.
As Cottesmore was already going to close, another 'advantage' in disbanding the Harrier force is the saving in rebasing them at Wittering and building a new mess there.
Any mention re the Puma fleet?
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Torque,
I'll rise above your infantile twaddle and refer you to an earlier post from NURSE in which she hits the nail on the head.. In many cases, the problems stem from assumptions made by those defining the specifications which are not promulgated to the procurement authority.. If you seriously think (As your post suggests in spirit, if not actual word) that Defence contractors should be part of team Military and bend over backwards to make up for the MoD's skillset shortfalls, say, by not maximising an opportunity, then my old chum, you are misguided.
Now I am not suggesting perfection (If I may address your "response" specifically) however the process of procurement is a serious failing in the Military and until that situation is recognised and addressed, then the arguments over value, cutbacks and in appropriate solutions will rage on.
PS.. I am ex-Mil myself. I sympathize and identify with the issues.
Because if one could get an NVQ in Defence Procurement and Spotting Evil Industry Lies from the University of East Sh1tforbrains, people so qualified would no doubt be perfect in every way.
Now I am not suggesting perfection (If I may address your "response" specifically) however the process of procurement is a serious failing in the Military and until that situation is recognised and addressed, then the arguments over value, cutbacks and in appropriate solutions will rage on.
PS.. I am ex-Mil myself. I sympathize and identify with the issues.
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BBC News "ticker"
"DEFENCE CUTS:
Plans for a £14bn defence training programme centred on a training college in South Wales are scrapped by the MoD"
No details yet - just on the ticker @ 12.05 - BBC News - Home
For once, the BBC has it right: "Defence Cuts".
Plans for a £14bn defence training programme centred on a training college in South Wales are scrapped by the MoD"
No details yet - just on the ticker @ 12.05 - BBC News - Home
For once, the BBC has it right: "Defence Cuts".
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and these are just the cuts that are to affect Defence. What of all the other cuts to come this week??
Why is it the population are the ones being shafted, rather than the bankers who are still raking in billions for their companies, and making massive bonuses? We've bailed them out, so where is the return on our investment?? Oh thats right, going into the bankers pockets in the form of profits and bonuses.
Why is it the population are the ones being shafted, rather than the bankers who are still raking in billions for their companies, and making massive bonuses? We've bailed them out, so where is the return on our investment?? Oh thats right, going into the bankers pockets in the form of profits and bonuses.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Details ref St Athan: Termination of the Defence Training Review
The termination of the Defence Training Rationalisation (DTR) project and the Metrix Consortium's appointment as preferred bidder has been announced by Defence Secretary Dr Liam Fox today, 19 October 2010.
The DTR project intended to combine the technical and engineering training for the Royal Navy, Army and Royal Air Force on a single site at St Athan in South Wales. In a written ministerial statement to Parliament today, Dr Fox said:
The termination of the Defence Training Rationalisation (DTR) project and the Metrix Consortium's appointment as preferred bidder has been announced by Defence Secretary Dr Liam Fox today, 19 October 2010.
The DTR project intended to combine the technical and engineering training for the Royal Navy, Army and Royal Air Force on a single site at St Athan in South Wales. In a written ministerial statement to Parliament today, Dr Fox said:
"The Metrix Consortium was appointed as preferred bidder in January 2007 subject to it developing an affordable and value for money contract proposal.
"Given the significance of this project and the opportunity to provide a world-class training facility, the Ministry of Defence has worked tirelessly to deliver this project.
"However, it is now clear that Metrix cannot deliver an affordable, commercially-robust proposal within the prescribed period and it has therefore been necessary to terminate the DTR procurement and Metrix's appointment as preferred bidder.
"Technical training, collocated on as few sites as possible, remains in our view the best solution for our Armed Forces. Equally, St Athan was previously chosen as the best location on which to collocate that training for good reasons, and we still hope to base our future defence training solution there.
"We will however now carry out some work before finalising the best way ahead; including to confirm both our training and estates requirement, and the best way to structure the solution that will meet them.
"To ensure momentum is not lost, work on the alternative options will begin as soon as possible and we hope to be able to announce our future plans in the spring."
Training will continue to be delivered at current training locations as it would have done under the original PFI (Private Finance Initiative) proposal. These sites are: Arborfield, Blandford, Bordon, Cosford, Cranwell, Digby, Fareham (Collingwood), Gosport (Sultan) and St Athan.
"Given the significance of this project and the opportunity to provide a world-class training facility, the Ministry of Defence has worked tirelessly to deliver this project.
"However, it is now clear that Metrix cannot deliver an affordable, commercially-robust proposal within the prescribed period and it has therefore been necessary to terminate the DTR procurement and Metrix's appointment as preferred bidder.
"Technical training, collocated on as few sites as possible, remains in our view the best solution for our Armed Forces. Equally, St Athan was previously chosen as the best location on which to collocate that training for good reasons, and we still hope to base our future defence training solution there.
"We will however now carry out some work before finalising the best way ahead; including to confirm both our training and estates requirement, and the best way to structure the solution that will meet them.
"To ensure momentum is not lost, work on the alternative options will begin as soon as possible and we hope to be able to announce our future plans in the spring."
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PN - money spent is money gone; not quite true, contracts with BAEs and Rolls Royce for airframe and engines were out to 2018, the OSD for Harrier.
What would be interesting reading is how much we, as taxpayers, have got to now pay out to these companies in the form of compensation for breaking the contracts, because it will be down to the taxpayer to pick up the bill.
As for the move from Cottesmore to Wittering, Cottesmore was/is going to close as a flying station, yes;in fact a satelitte of Wittering from 01 Apr 11. Wittering's building plans for Cottesmore personnel moving in have already started; SLAM buildings, new JRM, new WO/Sgt Mess all progressing well. Contracts for all these would have already been signed; yet more compensation claims against the MOD.
What would be interesting reading is how much we, as taxpayers, have got to now pay out to these companies in the form of compensation for breaking the contracts, because it will be down to the taxpayer to pick up the bill.
As for the move from Cottesmore to Wittering, Cottesmore was/is going to close as a flying station, yes;in fact a satelitte of Wittering from 01 Apr 11. Wittering's building plans for Cottesmore personnel moving in have already started; SLAM buildings, new JRM, new WO/Sgt Mess all progressing well. Contracts for all these would have already been signed; yet more compensation claims against the MOD.
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Surely by increasing the money in the RAF and Navy's pockets instead of this foreign aid money, the forces would be able to drop food supplies and whatnot directly to the people who need it. Rather than the whole 'piss it down the drain' currently employed.
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"AID..."
Jolly, this the sort of thing you are referring to?
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...ew SAM Systems
Nice to know that the "ring-fenced" billion or so "we" give to india each year is being put to good use!
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...ew SAM Systems
Nice to know that the "ring-fenced" billion or so "we" give to india each year is being put to good use!
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As I have already said ....sorry,postulated (!) on this subject (Carriers,defence cuts ) elsewhere on this site today ; don't believe everything that you read in the newspapers !!
I would suggest that there exists a strong possibility that a senior Royal Naval officer, maybe even from the Royal Marines,has but recently left these shores for The Americas with the object of negotiating for the purchase of a number of FA-18 Super Hornets,to be operated (eventually) from the two new CVAs ,the names of which I DO hope will be changed ( Sorry,Your Majesty / Your Highness , but your names / titles are too long !...something snappy like "Eagle" or "Ark" would be better !)
I would imagine,therefore,that BOTH vessels would be configured with arrestor wires and catapults ; EMALS would be logical, as the ships' propulsion systems will result in the availability of VAST amounts of electricity from gas-turbo and Diesel ICE generators. Auxiliary steam plants have their weaknesses, as per the "Graf Von Spee" !!
As to the operation of 1 CVA as purely a LPH is ludicrous,when one considers that HMS Ocean is a "commercial" design ,sister ships of which could be "knocked up in no time " by any half-decent shipbuilder in the event of a sudden need for such vessels ; the amount of money wasted on the seemingly ENDLESS modifications to HMS Hermes whilst MOD vacillated between designating her either a CVA or a LPH was nothing short of OBSCENE !! We must not let this happen again !
So I guess some lucky, near-future FAA pilots will be spending a year or two across the Pond, MADDL-ing and DLP-ing with the USN, before returning home and buying a house in rural Somerset !! But that's only a supposition,of course !!
I would suggest that there exists a strong possibility that a senior Royal Naval officer, maybe even from the Royal Marines,has but recently left these shores for The Americas with the object of negotiating for the purchase of a number of FA-18 Super Hornets,to be operated (eventually) from the two new CVAs ,the names of which I DO hope will be changed ( Sorry,Your Majesty / Your Highness , but your names / titles are too long !...something snappy like "Eagle" or "Ark" would be better !)
I would imagine,therefore,that BOTH vessels would be configured with arrestor wires and catapults ; EMALS would be logical, as the ships' propulsion systems will result in the availability of VAST amounts of electricity from gas-turbo and Diesel ICE generators. Auxiliary steam plants have their weaknesses, as per the "Graf Von Spee" !!
As to the operation of 1 CVA as purely a LPH is ludicrous,when one considers that HMS Ocean is a "commercial" design ,sister ships of which could be "knocked up in no time " by any half-decent shipbuilder in the event of a sudden need for such vessels ; the amount of money wasted on the seemingly ENDLESS modifications to HMS Hermes whilst MOD vacillated between designating her either a CVA or a LPH was nothing short of OBSCENE !! We must not let this happen again !
So I guess some lucky, near-future FAA pilots will be spending a year or two across the Pond, MADDL-ing and DLP-ing with the USN, before returning home and buying a house in rural Somerset !! But that's only a supposition,of course !!
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As i see it if you cant sort out your own country ie giving the men and women of the armed forces the correct and most up to date equipment to protect you and not cut backs and asking more from them how can you sort the worlds problems out. We spend far too much on foreign aid and because of this our own country and defences and those who serve suffer. They have been shafted yet again it is Totally unjust and a disgrace in my eyes.
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Postman Plod
Now THERE is an uncomfortable question Mr Cameron..
Why is it the population are the ones being shafted, rather than the bankers who are still raking in billions for their companies, and making massive bonuses?
Now THERE is an uncomfortable question Mr Cameron..
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When David Cameron makes his speech at 1530 this afternoon I bet he will start with words along the lines of…”…due to the gross incompetence of the last Labour Government and the 3.3 billion black hole that they left in the Defence Budget, it’s all their fault that we have to make these deep and painful cuts to the Armed Forces…..”
And then he will go on to praise the role of the Armed Forces and the value of them, their commitment and dedication and bla, bla, bla.
And that it: that statement will allow him to get away with it!!!!!!!!
In my opinion at least the last Government was spending money on Defence to make up for the shortfalls created by themselves and cuts that took place well before the Labour Government was elected to power in 1997. The country has become broke, not because of a Labour Government Policy, but because of a meltdown in the free market Banking Sector. That is why every country in the western world is going through this pain. But at the end of the day, money was still being spent on the Armed Forces by the previous Government. I don’t think that can be said now.
Blaming the last Government is in the same principle as blaming Winston Churchill for the fact that the country was broke at the end of the Second World War!!!! (Slight exaggeration I know, but it is the same principle on a much smaller scale).
And let’s face it, if wasn’t for the support reported in the press and even comments made by Hilary Clinton (just how low have we become) the cuts would have been harder and deeper. In the words of Ricky Tomlinson “Personal Intervention by David Cameron, My Ar$$e” This Government finally backed down on deeper cuts because of immense pressure and the bad PR that would have come following ruthless cuts and not because of any other reason.
To cut the Armed Forces to this extent, while we are fighting a war and with the world in such an un-stable situation because of so many political failures is not just bloody stupid it is criminally insane.
Forgets your aircraft, boats and tanks, your carriers, trident and all the other spectacular projects. The real people about to hurt with this Defence Review will be the boots on the ground – pilots, gunners, infantry, paras, engineers, cooks, plods, blunties and everybody else that do the real work, including a lot of civilians.
And the only way for the Armed Forces to ever recover from this will be to have a bloody big, and I mean big, war! Tell you what they would find the money then!
Sorry, I will get down now.
And then he will go on to praise the role of the Armed Forces and the value of them, their commitment and dedication and bla, bla, bla.
And that it: that statement will allow him to get away with it!!!!!!!!
In my opinion at least the last Government was spending money on Defence to make up for the shortfalls created by themselves and cuts that took place well before the Labour Government was elected to power in 1997. The country has become broke, not because of a Labour Government Policy, but because of a meltdown in the free market Banking Sector. That is why every country in the western world is going through this pain. But at the end of the day, money was still being spent on the Armed Forces by the previous Government. I don’t think that can be said now.
Blaming the last Government is in the same principle as blaming Winston Churchill for the fact that the country was broke at the end of the Second World War!!!! (Slight exaggeration I know, but it is the same principle on a much smaller scale).
And let’s face it, if wasn’t for the support reported in the press and even comments made by Hilary Clinton (just how low have we become) the cuts would have been harder and deeper. In the words of Ricky Tomlinson “Personal Intervention by David Cameron, My Ar$$e” This Government finally backed down on deeper cuts because of immense pressure and the bad PR that would have come following ruthless cuts and not because of any other reason.
To cut the Armed Forces to this extent, while we are fighting a war and with the world in such an un-stable situation because of so many political failures is not just bloody stupid it is criminally insane.
Forgets your aircraft, boats and tanks, your carriers, trident and all the other spectacular projects. The real people about to hurt with this Defence Review will be the boots on the ground – pilots, gunners, infantry, paras, engineers, cooks, plods, blunties and everybody else that do the real work, including a lot of civilians.
And the only way for the Armed Forces to ever recover from this will be to have a bloody big, and I mean big, war! Tell you what they would find the money then!
Sorry, I will get down now.
Last edited by SRENNAPS; 19th Oct 2010 at 12:33.
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SRENNAPS,
No need to get down, I think. Well said...
As to the GBP 3.3 billion black hole; what happened to the GBP 36 billion version? Cameron, Osborne, et al, just like the ZaNu Labia lot before, are making these numbers up as they go along...
No need to get down, I think. Well said...
As to the GBP 3.3 billion black hole; what happened to the GBP 36 billion version? Cameron, Osborne, et al, just like the ZaNu Labia lot before, are making these numbers up as they go along...
