Air Officer possibly misidentified
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SODCAT
Society of Directional Consultants and Allied Trades. The Air Marshal is a fully paid up member. He was one of my students at FY. If he was awarded a QCVSA, not MID, it is not necessarily awarded in conjunction with a campaign medal.
Thanks for that re SODCAT. Yes I knew about QCVSA, my old boss on 214 had one and it was the sole adornment on his No 1, back in the days when you could do a full career in the RAF and not pick up any campaign medals. Was just making the point that it's also theoretically possible to get an MID, without getting the associated campaign medal.
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It is a QCVS, Gazetted in Oct 2002 so probably awarded for actions in the preceding 12 months. This appears to coincide with a period in his biography where he was Commander British Forces Oman and Commander of the DOBs at Seeb and Thumrait.
London Gazette
London Gazette
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QCVS, MiD etc
It was the QCVS on the photograph that got me to start this thread. On ACM Bryant’s bar of medals, the emblem is simply messy.
When I was young one only saw the QCVSA, as worn by Tankertrashnav’s former boss, separate from a medal ribbon. The MiD would always be mounted on a GSM or (among the older gentry) the 1945 Victory medal.
When I was briefly an ADC, I took a professional interest in the fact that the “semi-detached” emblem should be worn on a pretend medal ribbon matching the cloth of the underlying jacket. In my then circle, whether or not attached to full-size medals or miniatures, any of the Queen’s Commendations would have had to be re-dressed for pale blue, khaki, white and black backgrounds. More of a punishment than an award !
One can imagine a gaudy but correct civilian awardee choosing to take part in a Remembrance Day ceremony in a tartan jacket …
While Group Captain Bryant was being awarded his QCVS, Lt William Sasser USCG was awarded the AFC. Might the powers-that-be have started thinking in his case in terms of QCVSA and decided that the Americans would simply not have understood something so odd ?
Is anyone interested in a bit of a campaign to give these good people a proper medal ?
My own preference would be for the retrospective issue of the last commemorative medal to carry the appropriate leaf symbol. In civilian circles these have often been allocated as a poor man’s MBE. ACM Bryant wears the Golden Jubilee 2002 medal and, if my suggestion works, could simply transfer the emblem to its ribbon.
Comments ?
When I was young one only saw the QCVSA, as worn by Tankertrashnav’s former boss, separate from a medal ribbon. The MiD would always be mounted on a GSM or (among the older gentry) the 1945 Victory medal.
When I was briefly an ADC, I took a professional interest in the fact that the “semi-detached” emblem should be worn on a pretend medal ribbon matching the cloth of the underlying jacket. In my then circle, whether or not attached to full-size medals or miniatures, any of the Queen’s Commendations would have had to be re-dressed for pale blue, khaki, white and black backgrounds. More of a punishment than an award !
One can imagine a gaudy but correct civilian awardee choosing to take part in a Remembrance Day ceremony in a tartan jacket …
While Group Captain Bryant was being awarded his QCVS, Lt William Sasser USCG was awarded the AFC. Might the powers-that-be have started thinking in his case in terms of QCVSA and decided that the Americans would simply not have understood something so odd ?
Is anyone interested in a bit of a campaign to give these good people a proper medal ?
My own preference would be for the retrospective issue of the last commemorative medal to carry the appropriate leaf symbol. In civilian circles these have often been allocated as a poor man’s MBE. ACM Bryant wears the Golden Jubilee 2002 medal and, if my suggestion works, could simply transfer the emblem to its ribbon.
Comments ?
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rlsbutler
The MiD would always be mounted on a GSM or (among the older gentry) the 1945 Victory medal.
You mean the 1939-45 War Medal.
My own preference would be for the retrospective issue of the last commemorative medal to carry the appropriate leaf symbol. In civilian circles these have often been allocated as a poor man’s MBE. ACM Bryant wears the Golden Jubilee 2002 medal and, if my suggestion works, could simply transfer the emblem to its ribbon.
What if the recipient did not qualify for a commemorative medal ?
I think that you are on a loser.
Phil.
Risbutler - I couldnt agree more that the present arrangement needs looking at, but I don't agree that putting the emblem on the most recent campaign medal would be appropriate - the holder of the QCVSA may never have taken part in that campaign. Personally I'd like to see a completely new medal. I don't know if the rather nice silver badge is still awarded to civilian recipients , maybe the military could have a medal which incorporated the design from the civil badge.
There's a good paper on these emblems here
https://www.sandhurstfoundation.org/...le_emblems.pdf
and it contains an illustration of the civil badge, among others.
Philrigger, you are correct that the proper name for the medal referred to is the 1939-45 War Medal, but it was often referred to as the Victory Medal, probably a throwback to the Victory Medal issued at the end of the Great War.
There's a good paper on these emblems here
https://www.sandhurstfoundation.org/...le_emblems.pdf
and it contains an illustration of the civil badge, among others.
Philrigger, you are correct that the proper name for the medal referred to is the 1939-45 War Medal, but it was often referred to as the Victory Medal, probably a throwback to the Victory Medal issued at the end of the Great War.
If he was awarded the QCVS for Service in an Operational Theatre (as is suggested by the Gazette entry) then shouldn't it be mounted on his Afghanistan OSM?
The only reference I can find easily to hand is from JSP761 dated May 08:
I guess it comes down to whether the AFG OSM is considered a campaign medal or not.
Nothing like nit picking the CinC's dress code .... come on PSO - get on here and put us right ..... or not
The only reference I can find easily to hand is from JSP761 dated May 08:
1204. Emblems for Level 4 awards (MiD, QCB, QCBA, QCVS) are to be worn on the ribbon of the medal for the campaign for which they were awarded. If a campaign medal has not been granted, the emblem is to be worn directly on the tunic after all medal ribbons. If the recipient has no medal ribbons, the emblem is to be worn in the position where a single ribbon would be worn.
I guess it comes down to whether the AFG OSM is considered a campaign medal or not.
Nothing like nit picking the CinC's dress code .... come on PSO - get on here and put us right ..... or not
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Yep, a thoroughly nice bloke and well-deserved promotion and position now held. He was one of the few decent desk officers that I had throughout my career. His dad was an air marshal too I recall.
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Wrathmonk
The simple explanaition could be that while he provided Valuable Service to ops in Afghanistan he may well have done this in a location that fell outside of the geographic limits of the OSM(Afghanistan) - at the CAOC (for instance).
That's my (non-PSO) guess.
The simple explanaition could be that while he provided Valuable Service to ops in Afghanistan he may well have done this in a location that fell outside of the geographic limits of the OSM(Afghanistan) - at the CAOC (for instance).
That's my (non-PSO) guess.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Although as I study genealogy I have to say that one is the spitting image of the other and you are saying that there were three Bryants that made ACM?
The one I meant was Sqn Ldr CGI, later Stn Cdr, finally ACM Sir Derek at RAFG.
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QCVS, MiD etc
Philrigger
It is hard to believe that the awardee would not have been alive when the last commemorative was issued. I propose that he/she be awarded that medal retrospectively.
Of course you are right about the 1939-45 War Medal and I am not so old as to have made the mistake out of experience. Still, you knew what I meant …
Tankertrashnav
I agree about not putting the emblem in a campaign medal, except where already provided for – but I was proposing a (newly awarded if necessary, but previously issued) commemorative medal
Thanks for the Sandhurst reference. I had seen nothing of that sort and am glad that someone has given an authoritative expression to the problem. In case anyone on this thread still has any interest in the discussion, I would make two suggestions for when Col Tinson should ever modify his paper:
It is hard to believe that the awardee would not have been alive when the last commemorative was issued. I propose that he/she be awarded that medal retrospectively.
Of course you are right about the 1939-45 War Medal and I am not so old as to have made the mistake out of experience. Still, you knew what I meant …
Tankertrashnav
I agree about not putting the emblem in a campaign medal, except where already provided for – but I was proposing a (newly awarded if necessary, but previously issued) commemorative medal
Thanks for the Sandhurst reference. I had seen nothing of that sort and am glad that someone has given an authoritative expression to the problem. In case anyone on this thread still has any interest in the discussion, I would make two suggestions for when Col Tinson should ever modify his paper:
Being Mentioned in Despatches initially meant that the individual’s name had been brought to the attention of the authorities in London by the Commander at the time, in the despatch he had written at a significant break or at the conclusion of operations.
I cannot prove it at the moment, but I believe there was a real convention (if never official) in respect of WWII for the first emblem to be mounted on the War Medal ribbon (thanks again, Phil) and for subsequent emblems to take position to the left across the adjacent campaign medal ribbons. I do not think this story changes what Col T says about the case when actual medals are worn.
I cannot prove it at the moment, but I believe there was a real convention (if never official) in respect of WWII for the first emblem to be mounted on the War Medal ribbon (thanks again, Phil) and for subsequent emblems to take position to the left across the adjacent campaign medal ribbons. I do not think this story changes what Col T says about the case when actual medals are worn.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TTN, this talk of MiD and being put on campaign medals begs a question.
When were the WW2 medals actually issued?
We know that the DSOs etc were awarded at the time but what of the campaign stars? Clearly the war medals came well after the war.
Would a seaman, for instance, put up the Atlantic Star ribbon as soon as he qualified, followed by the Italy Star as he transitted the Med and the Burma Star when he arrived?
When were the WW2 medals actually issued?
We know that the DSOs etc were awarded at the time but what of the campaign stars? Clearly the war medals came well after the war.
Would a seaman, for instance, put up the Atlantic Star ribbon as soon as he qualified, followed by the Italy Star as he transitted the Med and the Burma Star when he arrived?
PN - As far as I am aware the first campaign star ribbon which was approved for wear at the time was that for the Africa Star, the qualifying period for which ran from 10 June 1940 to 12 May 1943. I have a photo of my father in North Africa some time in 1942 sporting this ribbon on his battledress. Next came the 1939-43 Star, which of course was subsequently renamed the 1939-45 Star, and this ribbon was being worn from 1943 onwards, together with that of the Africa Star if applicable. As far as I am aware none of the other campaign ribbons were authorised until after the war, but I stand to be corrected on this. Issue of the stars and medals themselves did not start until 1946 at the earliest - an HMSO pamphlet published in June of that year gave full details of the qualification periods etc for the various awards - and medals continue to be issued to the present day in the case of recipients who can prove that they never received them for various reasons.
One interesting point is that the ribbons were designed by HM King George VI and these generally have some symbolic meaning, eg yellow for the desert sand on the Africa Star etc.
One interesting point is that the ribbons were designed by HM King George VI and these generally have some symbolic meaning, eg yellow for the desert sand on the Africa Star etc.
WWII Gongs & Other Things
For much of the war, only gallantry/distinguished service medals were worn, other than for pre-war campaigns or WWI.
Hamish Mahaddie - he of pathfinder fame - tells of going to the palace in mid-'43 where the King invested him with a DSO, DFC, AFC and Czech award. Afterwards, he repaired to a hostelry for a glass of fruit juice or whatever, where a woman said to him, something along the lines of: 'Young man, what are all those medals for'.
Mahaddie replies; 'I've no idea, madam, they were on the uniform when I bought it'.
As to: OTHER THINGS
Two weeks ago, I saw a sqn ldr wearing a QCVS on a piece of plain ribbon mounted ahead of all his other gongs. I thought things like a QCVS or something not related to a campaign was worn after all the other medals.
Have the rules on "where 2 wear the 'ware" changed with the changes introduced in about 1994?
O-D
Hamish Mahaddie - he of pathfinder fame - tells of going to the palace in mid-'43 where the King invested him with a DSO, DFC, AFC and Czech award. Afterwards, he repaired to a hostelry for a glass of fruit juice or whatever, where a woman said to him, something along the lines of: 'Young man, what are all those medals for'.
Mahaddie replies; 'I've no idea, madam, they were on the uniform when I bought it'.
As to: OTHER THINGS
Two weeks ago, I saw a sqn ldr wearing a QCVS on a piece of plain ribbon mounted ahead of all his other gongs. I thought things like a QCVS or something not related to a campaign was worn after all the other medals.
Have the rules on "where 2 wear the 'ware" changed with the changes introduced in about 1994?
O-D
Gentleman Aviator
No O-D, the rules haven't changed - see AP 1358. The only possible (if very unlikely) circumstance that could put a QCVSA ahead of ribbons is if the ribbons were foreign - and of course ALL foreign awards come after all Brit ones.
I'll try and find a link to the rules - I think they are internet rather than intranet
Edited to add:
Found it! Annexes E & F of Chapter 8 of 1358, which is here
You need to scroll almost to the end of a long-ish pdf.
I'll try and find a link to the rules - I think they are internet rather than intranet
Edited to add:
Found it! Annexes E & F of Chapter 8 of 1358, which is here
You need to scroll almost to the end of a long-ish pdf.
rlsbutler
More thread creep.
It is hard to believe that the awardee would not have been alive when the last commemorative was issued. I propose that he/she be awarded that medal retrospectively.
I know this is hypothetical but rules must cover ALL circumstances.
The commemorative award previous to 1977 was the coronation medal in 1953. The next one is likely to be either;
The 60th anniversaary of the QE II accession or
The coronation of Prince Charles (or Prince William if QE II lasts for a lot longer).
Just a thought.
Aaron
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The previous commemorative medal was awarded in 1977 before he was born. Where would he wear his award until such time as a new commemorative award was made (In this case 2002) ?
I know this is hypothetical but rules must cover ALL circumstances.
The commemorative award previous to 1977 was the coronation medal in 1953. The next one is likely to be either;
The 60th anniversaary of the QE II accession or
The coronation of Prince Charles (or Prince William if QE II lasts for a lot longer).
I know this is hypothetical but rules must cover ALL circumstances.
The commemorative award previous to 1977 was the coronation medal in 1953. The next one is likely to be either;
The 60th anniversaary of the QE II accession or
The coronation of Prince Charles (or Prince William if QE II lasts for a lot longer).
Thread Drift - BUT..
... The Silver Jubilee Medal allocation was a farce, with an allocation of 1 per 33 service personnel and no detailed criteria, except air officers, stn cdrs and some other prominent personnel were outwith the limits.
The Golden Jubilee Medal set down the (imho) not unreasonable limit of 5 years minimum service but then excluded personnel of the RAF Reserve (CC) grouping who held a formal commission, wore the uniform, subject to the Air Force Act etc BUT were paid in a civil service grade - much bitterness amongst this group, particularly when it appeared that there was a certain reticence in some quarters to fight their corner!
What should the Diamond Jubilee criteria be?
Perhaps we need a new thread for this but I suggest, as a starter:
a. Trained strength or if a service limit required, 5 years unless in receipt of a campaign medal or has been awarded a gallantry award of Grade 3 or above for non-operational work.
b. To include reserves and auxiliaries of all persuasions, subject to completion of all attendance/bounty obligations.
NOW THEN
what about those now retired who have given - say - 30 years 'reckonable'!! Hence, they served Her Majesty but it's just the accident of birth that means their service won't be acknowledged.
SOLDIER magazine will have a field day with something like this!
Over to you ppruners, I'm going down the shelter, 'till it's all over!
O-D
The Golden Jubilee Medal set down the (imho) not unreasonable limit of 5 years minimum service but then excluded personnel of the RAF Reserve (CC) grouping who held a formal commission, wore the uniform, subject to the Air Force Act etc BUT were paid in a civil service grade - much bitterness amongst this group, particularly when it appeared that there was a certain reticence in some quarters to fight their corner!
What should the Diamond Jubilee criteria be?
Perhaps we need a new thread for this but I suggest, as a starter:
a. Trained strength or if a service limit required, 5 years unless in receipt of a campaign medal or has been awarded a gallantry award of Grade 3 or above for non-operational work.
b. To include reserves and auxiliaries of all persuasions, subject to completion of all attendance/bounty obligations.
NOW THEN
what about those now retired who have given - say - 30 years 'reckonable'!! Hence, they served Her Majesty but it's just the accident of birth that means their service won't be acknowledged.SOLDIER magazine will have a field day with something like this!
Over to you ppruners, I'm going down the shelter, 'till it's all over!
O-D