BBC2 Tonight, 22 September: BoB from a "New perspective".
Yes, Him
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BBC2 Tonight, 22 September: BoB from a "New perspective".
The blurb says that the programme will give new perspectives, including input from Luftwaffe pilots.
Herewith the blurb:
BBC - BBC Two Programmes - Battle of Britain: The Real Story
It's at 2000 on BBC2. If it's as good as Spitfire Women was the other night, it'll certainly be worth watching.
I don't know about that - there do seem to have been plenty of Spam movies about the Vietnam war.....
BBC - BBC Two Programmes - Battle of Britain: The Real Story
It's at 2000 on BBC2. If it's as good as Spitfire Women was the other night, it'll certainly be worth watching.
...military history tends not to be written by the losing side...
In fine form this morning BEagle.
>>If it's as good as Spitfire Women was the other night, it'll certainly be worth watching.<<
Agreed. Stunning programme! I loved that 'checklist for all aircraft'. How many other pilots would have clocked 65 World War 2 aircraft?
So sad that most of them lost their opportunity to fly after the war ended.
Agreed. Stunning programme! I loved that 'checklist for all aircraft'. How many other pilots would have clocked 65 World War 2 aircraft?
So sad that most of them lost their opportunity to fly after the war ended.
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James Holland's book on the Battle of Britain, released earlier this year, was certainly an interesting read, placing much more emphasis on the events in France than I had previously read. I look forward to hearing what he has to say tonight.
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Well, being cloven in twain is somewhat over dramatising events unless you are speaking from the perspective of My Lord Godwinson's eye, but nonetheless conducive to terminal writer's block, I grant you.
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You need to go a few frames further on in the Arrow-Camera Tapestry, chap having trouble with his contact lens is some old RO who misread the invite to a Beach Do, bloke getting hacked in a 3 v 1 is Harold.
Don't forget--No Tapestry, No Kill.
Don't forget--No Tapestry, No Kill.
I didn't see too much 'new perspective' tonight. The same old regurgitated blurb about the Royal Navy playing a bigger role than credited, 'which aircraft was better?' questions, RADAR saved the day and intelligence was poor on both sides.
Here's my 'new perspective' on the Battle of Britain for the not so expert 'subject matter expert' on tonight's program:
"British Airpower, in which I include RN FAA, Army AAA, Convoy Escort AAA, Barrage Balloons and the 'Air Defence of Great Britain' system won the Battle of Britain. However, by far the biggest contribution came from the RAF's Fighter Command, commonly acknowledged as 'The Few' (including foreign national and Commonwealth personnel)."
The BoB was all about denying the Nazis 'air superiority' without which they could not contemplate Op SEALION. Stories about naval supremacy do not feature in reality because the Nazis did not even get to that bit, which would have surely been the next big phase of the conflict in order to conduct a successful amphibious assault on the UK.
I thought tonight's program was a total let down.
LJ
Here's my 'new perspective' on the Battle of Britain for the not so expert 'subject matter expert' on tonight's program:
"British Airpower, in which I include RN FAA, Army AAA, Convoy Escort AAA, Barrage Balloons and the 'Air Defence of Great Britain' system won the Battle of Britain. However, by far the biggest contribution came from the RAF's Fighter Command, commonly acknowledged as 'The Few' (including foreign national and Commonwealth personnel)."
The BoB was all about denying the Nazis 'air superiority' without which they could not contemplate Op SEALION. Stories about naval supremacy do not feature in reality because the Nazis did not even get to that bit, which would have surely been the next big phase of the conflict in order to conduct a successful amphibious assault on the UK.
I thought tonight's program was a total let down.
LJ
Agreed LJ. Yet another dollop of "At last! The defining account of what really happened", only to find that it was the account of what we thought happened anyway. As to the wider contribution of other Commands and Personnel, didn't WS cover that in a little talk he gave at the time? If it's not someone coming up with an entirely new angle; "BoB a Naval Victory!", it's someone else coming up with the blindingly obvious. Seems to me for all the re-enactments, visits to airfields and Ops Rooms, even the air to air stuff that we've somewhat over indulged in, the real high points in all these progs has been listening to the old boys (and girls) telling us how it was. It was that bit that was the salvation of this one as well.
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I missed the programme but generally find that the best insights into the Luftwaffe point of view are usually to be found in their pilots' autobiographies.
Such as the excellent Spitfire On My Tail by Ulrich Steinhilper, a Me109 BoB pilot. I can highly recommend it
CS
Such as the excellent Spitfire On My Tail by Ulrich Steinhilper, a Me109 BoB pilot. I can highly recommend it
CS
Overall, not a bad effort, and it certainly showed that there is far more to the BoB than the traditional views - which were even still being taught at Cranwell when I went through in the late 90s - that it was the Luftwaffe's move to targeting London that was the major / sole factor that lead to Germany losing the Bob.
However, it also covered pretty much the same material as Stephen Bungay's excellent work, Most Dangerous Enemy. So interesting, pretty well done, if not wholly original.
However, it also covered pretty much the same material as Stephen Bungay's excellent work, Most Dangerous Enemy. So interesting, pretty well done, if not wholly original.
I was once privileged to get a Luftwaffe Pilot's perspective on the BoB. We were doing a charter flight from Tegel to Palma and one by one the pax came up front to take the obligatory photo. The last one was a late middle aged chap, short and a bit portly. He seemed to be hanging back a bit so I asked him if there was anything else he wanted. He pointed to the instrument panel and said; " Your Gyro, no? Also there, your Kompass?" I said yes and was he a pilot? "Oh, not for many years" What did he fly? "The Emil" The Co and I looked blankly at each other. Picking up our confusion he made to explain; "Yah! I shoot down six Tommies!" Suddenly we realised when the "many years" was, what he did then and what he flew (The Me109E). Trying to look vaguely disapproving I said "I see". "Yah, but then it is my turn and they shoot me down". "Oh dear!", this time trying not to look too pleased! "Yah, I come down on my parachute and it is a beautiful day. I can see England and I can see France. From England to me I see coming a motor boat, but then from France also comes a motor boat". What happened? "Oh, that was such a bad day!" Because the English got there first and captured you? "No! The Germans! I have to go back to the war!"
All told with the timing and patter of Eric Morecambe! He said that after the "indefinite postponement" his Staffel along with most of the others went East for Barbarossa and he stayed on the Eastern Front for the rest of the war. He must have been no mean fighter pilot to have survived, presumably an ace and I am ashamed to say that I never asked him his name! Perhaps someone can identify him from my story?
All told with the timing and patter of Eric Morecambe! He said that after the "indefinite postponement" his Staffel along with most of the others went East for Barbarossa and he stayed on the Eastern Front for the rest of the war. He must have been no mean fighter pilot to have survived, presumably an ace and I am ashamed to say that I never asked him his name! Perhaps someone can identify him from my story?
Prior to a B of b cocktail party in the 90s, one of our Navs mentioned to the boss that his father in law was staying with them, had flown in the B of B and could he invite him to the cocktail paty. The boss mentioned it to the Station Commander who said, of course, he would be most welcome as the rarely got veterans to the event.
On the evening, the Staish sees an elderly and distinguished looking gentleman standing next to the Nav and goes up to him and says,
"You must be the chap who flew in the Battle of Britain".
"Ya, Guten Abend. Mein name is Otto. Pleased to meet you".
The Nav had failed to mention he had met his wife while stationed in Germany and that her father had been a He111 crew member. We got him right royally plastered while he recounted some ripping yarns. A real honour to meet the chap.
On the evening, the Staish sees an elderly and distinguished looking gentleman standing next to the Nav and goes up to him and says,
"You must be the chap who flew in the Battle of Britain".
"Ya, Guten Abend. Mein name is Otto. Pleased to meet you".
The Nav had failed to mention he had met his wife while stationed in Germany and that her father had been a He111 crew member. We got him right royally plastered while he recounted some ripping yarns. A real honour to meet the chap.
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... From the many accounts published on the B of B it appears
generally agreed that the Luftwaffe had the greater advantage for armament in that most of their a/c were fitted with cannon - enabling them to open fire at a greater range - often able to sit back so to speak -
out of range as they engaged their enemy. In the few instances where the RAF were supplied with cannon - according to various accounts - RAF cannon were not so reliable and subject to frequent stoppages - leaving our
side at some disadvantage. Although fortunatly it didnt affect the final outcome of the battle.
...
generally agreed that the Luftwaffe had the greater advantage for armament in that most of their a/c were fitted with cannon - enabling them to open fire at a greater range - often able to sit back so to speak -
out of range as they engaged their enemy. In the few instances where the RAF were supplied with cannon - according to various accounts - RAF cannon were not so reliable and subject to frequent stoppages - leaving our
side at some disadvantage. Although fortunatly it didnt affect the final outcome of the battle.
...
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I'm not well read on the BoB, but I got a few things from last night's programme.
The change of use of the Me109E to escorting bombers instead of attacking our fighters was a critical factor. The impression was that the Me109E had the beating of our aircraft, albeit with only ten minutes worth of fuel in the operational area.
The German change from attacking our airfields to bombing towns was not a tactical decision so much as a retaliation ordered by Hitler for our bombing of Berlin.
It was also pointed out the Germans were not really making much progress in destroying RAF fighters, pilots and airfields and that they themselves were running out of pilots, aircraft and energy.
They would have been better off sticking to attacking our maritime activity using aircraft, submarines (and mines).
The Germans lost the BoB more than we won it.
Are these fair points?
The change of use of the Me109E to escorting bombers instead of attacking our fighters was a critical factor. The impression was that the Me109E had the beating of our aircraft, albeit with only ten minutes worth of fuel in the operational area.
The German change from attacking our airfields to bombing towns was not a tactical decision so much as a retaliation ordered by Hitler for our bombing of Berlin.
It was also pointed out the Germans were not really making much progress in destroying RAF fighters, pilots and airfields and that they themselves were running out of pilots, aircraft and energy.
They would have been better off sticking to attacking our maritime activity using aircraft, submarines (and mines).
The Germans lost the BoB more than we won it.
Are these fair points?
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Perhaps the strength of the programme was that it gave those men on the Clapham omnibus a wider perspective of the Battle and the various parallel elements than they are normally given.
Was it my imagination or did he really say that Fighter Command squadrons each fielded 24 A/C?
Was it my imagination or did he really say that Fighter Command squadrons each fielded 24 A/C?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Defence is reactive. An attacker wins if he overcomes the defences. An attack may fail because it fails to overcome the defence.
In the sense that there is always a winner and a loser, we won.
A similar case was the Battle of the Atlantic; we defended and their attack was thwarted.
In the sense that there is always a winner and a loser, we won.
A similar case was the Battle of the Atlantic; we defended and their attack was thwarted.
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... Regarding the number of aircraft in each B of B RAF squadron-
the programme commentator stated along the lines that Lufwaffe estimates
were based on their own figures of 12 a/c per staffel - squadron or whatever the equivilant was - Whereas the RAF in fact would have up to 18 a/c per squadron - hence Luftwaffe underestimating RAF strength. However to add to confusion lower and higher figures quoting RAF squadron strength can also be found.
...
the programme commentator stated along the lines that Lufwaffe estimates
were based on their own figures of 12 a/c per staffel - squadron or whatever the equivilant was - Whereas the RAF in fact would have up to 18 a/c per squadron - hence Luftwaffe underestimating RAF strength. However to add to confusion lower and higher figures quoting RAF squadron strength can also be found.
...