RAF Regiment Lance Corporals.
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The one illustrated wasn't drilled & tapped. It and the chevron look to be simply laid on a piece of blue/grey material.
WRT my earlier comments re: the Marksmans badge; I've received conflicting memories from others. One guy 'thinks' he recieved some pay for it and another says he received nothing.
WRT my earlier comments re: the Marksmans badge; I've received conflicting memories from others. One guy 'thinks' he recieved some pay for it and another says he received nothing.
Cunning Artificer
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When I was a J/T I would have ignored any instruction from a Lance Corporal regarding anything that fell within my trade responsibility, if I regarded it as incorrect (on the principal that there is no requirement to obey a wrongful order). If I had ever been called upon to join in the defence of our airfield I'd have followed the instructions of an RAF Regiment Lance Corporal regarding defensive positions or fire control - even when I was a Sergeant. Its just common sense to listen to those who have the training and experience for any particular situation. Horses for courses.
Regarding the Marksman's badge I never received a penny for mine and indeed stopped wearing it at all by the time I was representing Station and Command at RAF and Inter-Service matches. (Incidentally, the only army team that beat any team I was in was The Brigade of Gurkhas at Nee Soon in 1970 - though I suppose the RAAF Regiment team from Butterworth might also be counted as Pongos
)
Regarding the Marksman's badge I never received a penny for mine and indeed stopped wearing it at all by the time I was representing Station and Command at RAF and Inter-Service matches. (Incidentally, the only army team that beat any team I was in was The Brigade of Gurkhas at Nee Soon in 1970 - though I suppose the RAAF Regiment team from Butterworth might also be counted as Pongos
)
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Ignoring the orders of a superior officer is a chargeable offence though. Surely the right thing to do would be to inform the LCpl that you believe his direction to be incorrect from a technical standpoint, and then refer the matter to the nearest Cpl or above in your CoC. Just ignoring the order is like writing your own 252.
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I would have put it to him nicely that he wasn't qualified to make his instruction and ask him to reconsider his position. If he still insisted, then he'd have to charge me and my Flight Commander would decide if I'd made the right choice. I would certainly not do anything with a negative impact on flight safety unless there were very pressing operational circumstances (such as SEngO threatening me with a working weekend )
Incidentally, someone earlier mentioned that Lance Corporals were NCOs due to their possession of "Leadership" qualities that J/Ts and below lacked. During my apprenticeship at RAF Halton we received considerable leadership training and I was an NCO Apprentice. Not all of us passed-out as J/Ts; some of us passed-out direct to IOT and Cranwell/Henlow Cadetships for Permanent Commissions, others as direct Corporals. In my own case I passed out as a J/T and became a Corporal automatically a year later. How do we define the possession or otherwise of leadership qualities?
) Incidentally, someone earlier mentioned that Lance Corporals were NCOs due to their possession of "Leadership" qualities that J/Ts and below lacked. During my apprenticeship at RAF Halton we received considerable leadership training and I was an NCO Apprentice. Not all of us passed-out as J/Ts; some of us passed-out direct to IOT and Cranwell/Henlow Cadetships for Permanent Commissions, others as direct Corporals. In my own case I passed out as a J/T and became a Corporal automatically a year later. How do we define the possession or otherwise of leadership qualities?
Do you live on a different planet to the rest of us Blacksheep? Since when is an RAF Regiment NCO going to order you to do anything falling within your own trade knowledge or to do with anything jeapordising flight safety? The only reasonably likely scenario I can forsee is that a LCpl might have cause to tell a SAC to get his hair cut or put his hat on while he's knocking around outside the JR's mess. I hardly think that same LCpl is going to come into someone's hangar and start telling him how to change an engine.
I think some people need to stop over analysing things... As I've said earlier, a Regiment LCpl has been given that rank to look after his own fire team. At the extreme, he might have to pull someone else up on a minor discipline matter. That's it. The whole shebang.
Pay scales, technical qualifications, flight safety, it's all irrelevant tosh.
I think some people need to stop over analysing things... As I've said earlier, a Regiment LCpl has been given that rank to look after his own fire team. At the extreme, he might have to pull someone else up on a minor discipline matter. That's it. The whole shebang.
Pay scales, technical qualifications, flight safety, it's all irrelevant tosh.
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There's a lot of protectionism on the part of ex-JTs on this thread. The plain fact is while JTs were well trained tradesmen, there was no direct equivalence to Lance Corporal. One had powers of discipline over the other, and technician trade LCpls in the Army were paid on the same highest scale. The same argument applies later in their career to Chf Techs who equated themselves with Staff Sergeants and Flight Sergeants who equated themselves with WO2s. None of the three are correct.
However, as was pointed out much earlier, the rank structure in the Army is aligned with the needs of the infantry on the battlefield. This is why the RAF Regt has introduced the rank of Lance Corporal. I'm sure the RAF system of ranks is aligned to the needs of the Service, which aren't the same as the Army or Navy.
I (as an Army technician sergeant) would also defer to an infantry LCpl (though probably not a private) if the situation demanded it. However, if the situation demanded it, we would have been be in a lot of $hit!
However, as was pointed out much earlier, the rank structure in the Army is aligned with the needs of the infantry on the battlefield. This is why the RAF Regt has introduced the rank of Lance Corporal. I'm sure the RAF system of ranks is aligned to the needs of the Service, which aren't the same as the Army or Navy.
I (as an Army technician sergeant) would also defer to an infantry LCpl (though probably not a private) if the situation demanded it. However, if the situation demanded it, we would have been be in a lot of $hit!
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Ignoring the orders of a superior officer is a chargeable offence though. Surely the right thing to do would be to inform the LCpl that you believe his direction to be incorrect from a technical standpoint, and then refer the matter to the nearest Cpl or above in your CoC. Just ignoring the order is like writing your own 252.
Wasn't there a Group Captain in Cyprus many moons ago on exercise ask an airman for his SLR to inspect then charged him for handing it over, he then tried on a later exercise the same trick and asked an airman to hand it over which he refused, he then tried to take it off him and ended up on the receiving end of the butt. Just because it is an order, it does not make it a legal one.
Laarbruch72
before one criticises blacksheep over technical orders, one should read the previous post for which he was replying to put it in context.
Nutloose: I've read read Blacksheep's previous post... indeed I've read every post on this thread but I can't see where there's any reference to a situation where a regiment NCO would order say, an SAC(T) or a J/T to do something against flight safety.
To take your example:
In what universe would a LCpl rock ask anyone to jettison fuel tanks from a Harrier? It's a completely theoretical, and moot point.
I still think some are over analysing and scrabbling to find a situation where a technician could stick two fingers up to an RAF Regt LCpl that, let's face it, most of them are probably never going to meet, let alone speak to.
To take your example:
a L/Cpl rock wanders over and orders you to jettison the drop tanks........ would you???
I still think some are over analysing and scrabbling to find a situation where a technician could stick two fingers up to an RAF Regt LCpl that, let's face it, most of them are probably never going to meet, let alone speak to.
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I can see where you are coming from but in my time there were JT's on Regt Squadrons when they had Rapier, so it beyond the realms it may happen again in the future..... I have spent 35 years as an Aircraft Engineer both in the RAF and now as a licenced Civilian and believe me if another person can come up with something so stupid and totally unbelievable as to what they want done or can do with an aircraft they will......
I have watched pilots, passengers and unlookers do stuff to them you wouldn't of thought possible.. I have walked in on one person trying to clean and remove dead flies from a perspex windscreen with sandpaper and not a little part of it but the whole screen was opaque and he was furiously rubbing away to restore it to its previous condition as he had seen us engineers sand them down (which we do, but not with coarse grit sandpaper)...... I kid you not, a little knowledge is dangerous, people do the most unbelievable stupid things. I have seen fuel level sensor floats in fuel tanks with a film container glued to it as the float!!!!!!! thank God we have gone digital.
That is where Laarbruch
I have watched pilots, passengers and unlookers do stuff to them you wouldn't of thought possible.. I have walked in on one person trying to clean and remove dead flies from a perspex windscreen with sandpaper and not a little part of it but the whole screen was opaque and he was furiously rubbing away to restore it to its previous condition as he had seen us engineers sand them down (which we do, but not with coarse grit sandpaper)...... I kid you not, a little knowledge is dangerous, people do the most unbelievable stupid things. I have seen fuel level sensor floats in fuel tanks with a film container glued to it as the float!!!!!!! thank God we have gone digital.
When I was a J/T I would have ignored any instruction from a Lance Corporal regarding anything that fell within my trade responsibility
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Additionally there were RAF apprentices that passed out as JT after 3 years (Dual trade Airframe Engines) and were promoted to CPL after one.....
That way we managed to avoid the LAC & SAC stages... But we were worth it
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Even worse, there was also the DE (Direct Entrant) way of becoming a JT. Do the basic training (6 weeks) to be followed by the Trade Training (17 months). Then after 3 years as a JT, you were promoted to CPL
That way we managed to avoid the LAC & SAC stages... But we were worth it
That way we managed to avoid the LAC & SAC stages... But we were worth it
Did anyone else have problems explaining to their mother why they'd gone from Senior Aircraftsman to Junior Technician? 
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Wasn't there a Group Captain in Cyprus many moons ago on exercise ask an airman for his SLR to inspect then charged him for handing it over, he then tried on a later exercise the same trick and asked an airman to hand it over which he refused, he then tried to take it off him and ended up on the receiving end of the butt.
Later in the day the armoury rang the photo section to hasten their return of weapons. "They've gone back Sgt".
Another time, brilliant this one, he let off several tear gas cannisters in Rock HQ. After the air raid the all clear was sounded from Rock HQ and the rocks unmasked without doing a sniff check.
Later we drove passed and every door and window was wide open
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I noticed last year when they mounted guard at Windsor they were ordered; "Out the Escorts" who doubled at the High Port from the rear of the guard to march either side of the Guard Commander on leaving Victoria Barracks. Is that in the RAF Drill Manual? Well is it?
Even worse, there was also the DE (Direct Entrant) way of becoming a JT. Do the basic training (6 weeks) to be followed by the Trade Training (17 months). Then after 3 years as a JT, you were promoted to CPL
That way we managed to avoid the LAC & SAC stages... But we were worth it
That way we managed to avoid the LAC & SAC stages... But we were worth it
Entry into the Warrant Officers' and Sergeants' Mess was all the sweeter in view of the time I'd spent waiting for it and I didn't appreciate an old school chum (FS ALM) airily stating that it was no big deal. Of course it wasn't, for him - he'd always had it!
Lost touch with him now. Tit.
Last edited by TrickyTree; 7th Sep 2010 at 20:39. Reason: Punctuation unbecoming a technical tradesman!
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Ahhhhh accelerated promotion. What a great scheme that was.
But I've no regrets and no axe to grind, I'm very happy and with even with hindsight I'd probably make all the same mistakes again. For the last quarter-century I've had an absolute ball and still am having a whale of a time, I can look anybody in the eye and say that I am a damn fine technician, and these, really, are the things that matter