Borneo 1962-66
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Borneo 1962-66
I've been reading some general books on the Borneo Confrontation and trying to get more information on the Helecopter operations. Any one know of any books/websites?
How did the climate/terrain effect the performance of the Belvedere,Whirlwinds, Wessex's, souix and scouts?
How did the climate/terrain effect the performance of the Belvedere,Whirlwinds, Wessex's, souix and scouts?
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NURSE, it was slighty before my time, but from some I know who were there, the high temperatures caused major problems with aircraft that were already performance-limited even in ISA conditions.
My favourite story (possibly achrophal) from those days was of the number of hits from ground fire the Brit choppers were suffering in the tail rotor area. Then some bright spark came up with the novel idea of moving the large RAF roundel that was painted under the forward cabin to right down towards the back end of the tail boom.
The Indon marksmen on the ground had been (naturally) drawn to aiming at the large, inviting 'target', and, with that providing the lead angle, the choppers were taking hits near the tail.
Roundel moved, same (lack of) lead angle applied, no more hits. British ingenuity at its best.
My favourite story (possibly achrophal) from those days was of the number of hits from ground fire the Brit choppers were suffering in the tail rotor area. Then some bright spark came up with the novel idea of moving the large RAF roundel that was painted under the forward cabin to right down towards the back end of the tail boom.
The Indon marksmen on the ground had been (naturally) drawn to aiming at the large, inviting 'target', and, with that providing the lead angle, the choppers were taking hits near the tail.
Roundel moved, same (lack of) lead angle applied, no more hits. British ingenuity at its best.
I was AT out there myself, NURSE, or MRT as we called it in those days. A shiny new co-pilot on Hastings enjoying the best posting on offer then or ever IMHO. Have you read:
Drop Zone Borneo, The RAF Campaign 1963-65: 'The Most Successful Use of Armed Forces in the Twentieth Century' Pen & Sword Military: Amazon.co.uk: Roger Annett: Books
written by a chum of mine, Roger Annett, similarly then both shiny and new but suffering from the disadvantage of being posted to the "Whistling Wheelbarrow"!
Nonetheless he captures very well the spirit of time and place. A different world in a different time of course, but a very typical low profile British success story.
The only "Chopper" related story that I recall came from one of our skippers who was detached as ASLO or BASO to them (as ever the memory fades) to supervise inter alia the loading of troops. The Whirlwind pilots complained that they were barely clearing the tree canopy from the small clearings as they departed loaded with troops. As the troops in question were Gurkhas and not burly Brits it didn't make sense. So chum hangs sample Gurkha on Butcher Scales slung from tree. Sure enough he comes in at 2/3 standard troop weight. Next replace Gurkha with kit. Tree groans, branch threatens to break, scales go to full scale. Upon investigation of backpack, in place of socks pairs spare for the use of, etc, is yet more ammo and associated sundries!
Drop Zone Borneo, The RAF Campaign 1963-65: 'The Most Successful Use of Armed Forces in the Twentieth Century' Pen & Sword Military: Amazon.co.uk: Roger Annett: Books
written by a chum of mine, Roger Annett, similarly then both shiny and new but suffering from the disadvantage of being posted to the "Whistling Wheelbarrow"!
Nonetheless he captures very well the spirit of time and place. A different world in a different time of course, but a very typical low profile British success story.The only "Chopper" related story that I recall came from one of our skippers who was detached as ASLO or BASO to them (as ever the memory fades) to supervise inter alia the loading of troops. The Whirlwind pilots complained that they were barely clearing the tree canopy from the small clearings as they departed loaded with troops. As the troops in question were Gurkhas and not burly Brits it didn't make sense. So chum hangs sample Gurkha on Butcher Scales slung from tree. Sure enough he comes in at 2/3 standard troop weight. Next replace Gurkha with kit. Tree groans, branch threatens to break, scales go to full scale. Upon investigation of backpack, in place of socks pairs spare for the use of, etc, is yet more ammo and associated sundries!
Last edited by Chugalug2; 31st Aug 2010 at 10:38.
Then some bright spark came up with the novel idea of moving the large RAF roundel that was painted under the forward cabin to right down towards the back end of the tail boom.
Helios in Borneo
There aren't too many accounts of Borneo and still fewer about the helio part of it - but that's about to change, however, not just yet!!
At that stage all helios were under powered and had limited range/payload. Comms were primitive, weather was a major problem, navigation done on the back of a fag packet - mostly time & distance stuff, poor maps, flying suits made in Australia - unless you wanted to wear the 'UK strength' blue stuff!!
For a young'un it was an experience of a lifetime.
Spares - particularly blades - were frequently in short supply and one was at the end of an 8000 miles pipeline being primed by people with no idea what was going on at t'other end!
Go to the 'history & nostalgia' threads on this site and look for 'Belvedere' and the posts about 225 sqn, confrontation and Indonesia etc - loads of background stuff there.
I had such a great time, I sometimes give talks about it!!
O-D
At that stage all helios were under powered and had limited range/payload. Comms were primitive, weather was a major problem, navigation done on the back of a fag packet - mostly time & distance stuff, poor maps, flying suits made in Australia - unless you wanted to wear the 'UK strength' blue stuff!!
For a young'un it was an experience of a lifetime.
Spares - particularly blades - were frequently in short supply and one was at the end of an 8000 miles pipeline being primed by people with no idea what was going on at t'other end!
Go to the 'history & nostalgia' threads on this site and look for 'Belvedere' and the posts about 225 sqn, confrontation and Indonesia etc - loads of background stuff there.
I had such a great time, I sometimes give talks about it!!
O-D
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Another story
At the start of Confrontation, most of Borneo was unsurveyed: it was said that the border between the East Malaysian (ex-British) and Indonesian Borneo had been surveyed by Shell, with the British and Dutch sides of the company doing the work separately, using different base-lines. Major (and even minor) land features could therefore appear on either side of the frontier line, depending on whose mapping one was relying on. This was said to give considerable lee-way to troops on the ground when confronting opposition forces ...
Certainly, Canberras from Tengah were involved throughout in photography for accurate maps to be produced, instead of the large areas merely " contour shaded".
Confrontation was indeed the most successful example of successful diplomacy backed by land, sea and air forces shown to be "ready to go" - a sharp contrast to the mess that was being made in Viet Nam. The result was a stable Malaysia and Singapore, as well as Indonesia itself: Harold Wilson's declaration as Confrontation wound down, that we would never again be involved in anything so expensive and that we would withdraw from "East of Suez" was one of the crassest ever made by a British politician.
Certainly, Canberras from Tengah were involved throughout in photography for accurate maps to be produced, instead of the large areas merely " contour shaded".
Confrontation was indeed the most successful example of successful diplomacy backed by land, sea and air forces shown to be "ready to go" - a sharp contrast to the mess that was being made in Viet Nam. The result was a stable Malaysia and Singapore, as well as Indonesia itself: Harold Wilson's declaration as Confrontation wound down, that we would never again be involved in anything so expensive and that we would withdraw from "East of Suez" was one of the crassest ever made by a British politician.
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Indonesian Confrontation
Slightly off topic, but perhaps someone can shed some light on the persistent rumours of a 60 Sqn Javelin dispatching an Indonesian C-130 with a Firesteak missile and of a 20 Sqn Hunter claiming a kill on one of their MiG-17s?
Heimdall
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persistent rumours of a 60 Sqn Javelin dispatching an Indonesian C-130 with a Firesteak missile and of a 20 Sqn Hunter claiming a kill on one of their MiG-17s?
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Borneo Stories
The weighing of Gurkhas has substance in fact - but not in Borneo. A sqn cdr in Cyprus bought several bathroom scales and got his crews (then flying Sycamores) to weigh the troops before emplaneing them. In this way he could maximise payload offered. He became known as 'Bathroom Scales P*&^%' to differentiate from 'Tail Rotor P*&^%' who acquired that epithet for obvious reasons of banging the backend on the ground.
As to the Javelin/C130 story there is again an element of truth (sorry to contradict NutherA2). At Labis (Sep '64) the Indons dropped a load of paras from 3 Hercs and these duly fled back across the water to Sumatra and one of them (flown by Indon Foreign Minister Subandrio's son) believed he was being pursued or had been 'painted' by somebody and flew into the sea. The story of the search for and 'elimination' of the incursion, which resulted in the death of Major Richard Haddow and the disappearance of the Indon Sgt Maj Wogiman is for another day.
At a place called Long Bawan, south of Bakalalan, an Indon C130 was chased by a Javelin or Hunter which found the C130 coming the other way up a valley. Everybody did a quick 180, followed by the Brit doing another 180 and the C130 fled across the border and crashed on the strip at Long Bawan. It was still there sometime later.
Turning to Jig Peter, the border was generally taken as the ridge line. The aerial survey was started by 684 Sqn in 1945 and was still being worked on by 81 Sqn 18 years later. Of course the locals completely ignored the border but as we treated them generally better than the other lot, we benefitted from their trust and friendship.
Great Times
O-D
As to the Javelin/C130 story there is again an element of truth (sorry to contradict NutherA2). At Labis (Sep '64) the Indons dropped a load of paras from 3 Hercs and these duly fled back across the water to Sumatra and one of them (flown by Indon Foreign Minister Subandrio's son) believed he was being pursued or had been 'painted' by somebody and flew into the sea. The story of the search for and 'elimination' of the incursion, which resulted in the death of Major Richard Haddow and the disappearance of the Indon Sgt Maj Wogiman is for another day.
At a place called Long Bawan, south of Bakalalan, an Indon C130 was chased by a Javelin or Hunter which found the C130 coming the other way up a valley. Everybody did a quick 180, followed by the Brit doing another 180 and the C130 fled across the border and crashed on the strip at Long Bawan. It was still there sometime later.
Turning to Jig Peter, the border was generally taken as the ridge line. The aerial survey was started by 684 Sqn in 1945 and was still being worked on by 81 Sqn 18 years later. Of course the locals completely ignored the border but as we treated them generally better than the other lot, we benefitted from their trust and friendship.
Great Times
O-D
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I was on the QRA force the night of the Labis para drop and am absolutely certain that none of our aircraft was scrambled, although it was rumoured that Bukit Gombak GCI had detected the 130 incursion. I believe the report that one of the Indonesian aircraft had gone missing came from diplomatic sources in Jakarta; if it was suggested that it had been intercepted the rumour was allowed to develop, but believe me, none of us was airborne that night.
If the Borneo incident occurred, none of us was made aware of it, which would have been very odd, considering the amount of time and effort we were putting into the border patrols and the understandably keen rivalry between 20 & 60 Sqns (and latterly 64) to be the first to find anything to intercept.
Might this Wikipedia entry be relevant? -
The Indonesians lost a C-130 in Borneo and it did not involve the RAF. It occurred on 26 September 1965 near Long Bawang airfield into the 5th Division of Sarawak near Ba Kelalan in Sarawak. It was shot down by Indonesian anti-aircraft fire, being mistaken for a Commonwealth aircraft. It was carrying a reinforced RPKAD platoon from RPKAD Battalion 1’s Company C (nicknamed ‘Cobra’). The full company had been sent from Java on orders of the Indonesian high command to ‘neutralise’ a gun position on the border ridge. After the aircraft was hit the RPKAD parachuted out and the aircraft crashed, but the crew got clear before it caught fire.
If the Borneo incident occurred, none of us was made aware of it, which would have been very odd, considering the amount of time and effort we were putting into the border patrols and the understandably keen rivalry between 20 & 60 Sqns (and latterly 64) to be the first to find anything to intercept.
Might this Wikipedia entry be relevant? -
The Indonesians lost a C-130 in Borneo and it did not involve the RAF. It occurred on 26 September 1965 near Long Bawang airfield into the 5th Division of Sarawak near Ba Kelalan in Sarawak. It was shot down by Indonesian anti-aircraft fire, being mistaken for a Commonwealth aircraft. It was carrying a reinforced RPKAD platoon from RPKAD Battalion 1’s Company C (nicknamed ‘Cobra’). The full company had been sent from Java on orders of the Indonesian high command to ‘neutralise’ a gun position on the border ridge. After the aircraft was hit the RPKAD parachuted out and the aircraft crashed, but the crew got clear before it caught fire.
Humble Pie!!
I shall defer to NutherA2 regarding the details of the stories I have related above, as his involvement was more 'immediate' than my recollections based on second hand information: humble pie duly consumed with the wheatie bangs!
O-D
PS We're drifting the Thread a bit from helios stories but probably no bad thing as the campaign was a model of how to get things right and followed the equally successful Malayan Emergency.
O-D
PS We're drifting the Thread a bit from helios stories but probably no bad thing as the campaign was a model of how to get things right and followed the equally successful Malayan Emergency.
Gentleman Aviator
And both the P*&^%s went on to do quite well.
JL (Bathroom Scales) retired as a gp capt having commanded a rotary Station, while JW (Tail Rotor) finished as a 2-star, inter alia having commanded a fast-jet Station in Germany.
[I'm sure O-D knows all that,but others might not!]
JL (Bathroom Scales) retired as a gp capt having commanded a rotary Station, while JW (Tail Rotor) finished as a 2-star, inter alia having commanded a fast-jet Station in Germany.
[I'm sure O-D knows all that,but others might not!]
Some sundry types, including mandatory hicopleter, on the Kuching apron taken from Hastings executing an approved run in and break.
BTW Oldduffer, not sure I'm enamoured of your:
The weighing of Gurkhas has substance in fact - but not in Borneo.
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Another Hecopleter!
This one was one of 848 Squadrons runabout having taken over from the Hiller 12e's of 845 Squadron. Eventually they were superseded by Wasps.
Not a lot of lift in a Whirlwind 7 in Borneo - or anywhere else for that matter.
848 had the wonderful Wessex 5.
This one was one of 848 Squadrons runabout having taken over from the Hiller 12e's of 845 Squadron. Eventually they were superseded by Wasps.
Not a lot of lift in a Whirlwind 7 in Borneo - or anywhere else for that matter.
848 had the wonderful Wessex 5.
Baston:
848 had the wonderful Wessex 5.
A Day For Apologies!!!
Having 'backed down' to the superior knowledge of NutherA2 at about 0630 hours this a.m, I am now posting a retraction - nay - clarification to satisfy CHUGALUG2, regarding who did or did not weigh which Gurkhas, when, where and how. Further generous helpings of humble pie consumed!
However, Teeteringhead - in his last post - has forgotten the third in the trio and that was 'HT' - now living in quiet retirement somewhere near Cheltenham.
Happy Days
O-D
However, Teeteringhead - in his last post - has forgotten the third in the trio and that was 'HT' - now living in quiet retirement somewhere near Cheltenham.
Happy Days
O-D
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These may be of interest
BORNEO - Sepalot
Malaya - Supply Dispatch by air - What airfield?
Butterworth, malaya
Borneo 1965 - Beware Lots of Pics - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
Memories - Operations in the Air
and:
Helicopters of 26/66 Squadron at Kuching
Malaya - Supply Dispatch by air - What airfield?
Butterworth, malaya
Borneo 1965 - Beware Lots of Pics - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
Memories - Operations in the Air
and:
Helicopters of 26/66 Squadron at Kuching
Last edited by newswatcher; 1st Sep 2010 at 16:35. Reason: added URLs