Borneo 1962-66
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Lowball
I asked as you stated that there were WW10s stationed at Nanga Gaat over that period. In fact NG was inhabited by 848 with WX 5s over that period. We handed over to 110 Squadron in I think September 1966. Then we trotted off to Labuan and Bario. I remember flying to Long Jawi many times. You kind chaps used to bring us cans of cold Tiger beer..............
General view of Nanga Gaat for those unfamiliar with it.
I asked as you stated that there were WW10s stationed at Nanga Gaat over that period. In fact NG was inhabited by 848 with WX 5s over that period. We handed over to 110 Squadron in I think September 1966. Then we trotted off to Labuan and Bario. I remember flying to Long Jawi many times. You kind chaps used to bring us cans of cold Tiger beer..............
General view of Nanga Gaat for those unfamiliar with it.
Last edited by bast0n; 3rd Sep 2010 at 09:29. Reason: spilling
Whirlwinds in the Pooh!!
Chinook 240,
Thanks for the pointers to Sycamore's photos (accident prone SOB that he is!!!!). Unfortunately, they are not the ones to which I referred, so I still need to post the others.
You will have noted that Sycamore has managed to keep the old WW erect after a tail rotor failure with the landing parameters forced on him - skillful or what!!
O-D
Thanks for the pointers to Sycamore's photos (accident prone SOB that he is!!!!). Unfortunately, they are not the ones to which I referred, so I still need to post the others.
You will have noted that Sycamore has managed to keep the old WW erect after a tail rotor failure with the landing parameters forced on him - skillful or what!!
O-D
O/D,
No problem, I've been speaking with Sycamore recently and he described an incident involving my old Stn Cdr, BW, at an airbase near Hook, they droppped the Basingstoke postcode many years ago for obvious reasons. Was this another BW incident? I'm sure he'll be along shortly to post more pics.
No problem, I've been speaking with Sycamore recently and he described an incident involving my old Stn Cdr, BW, at an airbase near Hook, they droppped the Basingstoke postcode many years ago for obvious reasons. Was this another BW incident? I'm sure he'll be along shortly to post more pics.
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BastON,
I wouldn't want to get into a tiger can throwing contest with you on here but I do know my Whirlwinds from my Wessex and my RAF officers and NCOs from my RN officers. Similarly I know that I was commissioned in July 65 and flew to Singapore in Sep 65, attended JWS Sep/Oct 65 and flew to rejoin my battalion (who had deployed a month ahead of me) in Nov 65. We had taken over from an RBMR Regt and handed over to a Gurkha Bn in Mar 66. Shortly before we left we had a planned op on the 'other side' and in order to get the Company up to the border in one go the FAA came down from Bario (I think) with their Wessex to get the job done.
By late 66, IIRC, confrontation was as good as over.
LB
I wouldn't want to get into a tiger can throwing contest with you on here but I do know my Whirlwinds from my Wessex and my RAF officers and NCOs from my RN officers. Similarly I know that I was commissioned in July 65 and flew to Singapore in Sep 65, attended JWS Sep/Oct 65 and flew to rejoin my battalion (who had deployed a month ahead of me) in Nov 65. We had taken over from an RBMR Regt and handed over to a Gurkha Bn in Mar 66. Shortly before we left we had a planned op on the 'other side' and in order to get the Company up to the border in one go the FAA came down from Bario (I think) with their Wessex to get the job done.
By late 66, IIRC, confrontation was as good as over.
LB
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Lowball
You could be right - I have just checked my logbooks and it seems that the years have taken their toll!!
I think we must have moved to Bario around Christmas 1965.
Sorry for any confusion.
Below is the "Control Tower" at Bario, manned by a very nice Crab who had to take being bombarded with empty beer cans from returning aircraft......
and one for the fixed wing heros.............. the strip at Bario - note the HUD gunsight................
You could be right - I have just checked my logbooks and it seems that the years have taken their toll!!
I think we must have moved to Bario around Christmas 1965.
Sorry for any confusion.
Below is the "Control Tower" at Bario, manned by a very nice Crab who had to take being bombarded with empty beer cans from returning aircraft......
and one for the fixed wing heros.............. the strip at Bario - note the HUD gunsight................
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"Confrontation was indeed the most successful example of successful diplomacy backed by land, sea and air forces shown to be "ready to go" - a sharp contrast to the mess that was being made in Viet Nam."
Three things are worth remembering.
The UK helo effort in Borneo in the 1960's nearly approached the intensity of the French Helo operations in Vietnam back in the 1950's.
The RAF incurred more loss in Vietnam as a result of being shot down by 'Insurgents' in Vietnam than actually occured in Borneo.
The Commonwealth didn't win it, the Indo's lost it by an own goal.
Regards
Mick
Three things are worth remembering.
The UK helo effort in Borneo in the 1960's nearly approached the intensity of the French Helo operations in Vietnam back in the 1950's.
The RAF incurred more loss in Vietnam as a result of being shot down by 'Insurgents' in Vietnam than actually occured in Borneo.
The Commonwealth didn't win it, the Indo's lost it by an own goal.
Regards
Mick
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Slightly confused
@Chippymick
Could you amplify your second point worth remembering - "The RAF incurred more losses in Viet Nam ..." please? I'm a bit confused by it .
On your third point : one of the things about a "confrontational" set-up (domestic or international) is that the "winner" is the one who either has the patience to wait for the other side to make an own goal or the skill or low cunning to provoke him into one.
Didn't a famous Chinese tactician of the old days write about the best victory being the one you win without having to fight ?
Could you amplify your second point worth remembering - "The RAF incurred more losses in Viet Nam ..." please? I'm a bit confused by it .
On your third point : one of the things about a "confrontational" set-up (domestic or international) is that the "winner" is the one who either has the patience to wait for the other side to make an own goal or the skill or low cunning to provoke him into one.
Didn't a famous Chinese tactician of the old days write about the best victory being the one you win without having to fight ?
The Whirlwind had an HF set that we used to talk to Brunei, position reports, etc. One of the frequencies would sometimes mix with an American net in Viet Nam during certain atmospheric conditions. I was giving a position report when this American voice told me to get off the frequency:
"Don't you know there is a war on?"
"Yes," I replied, "we're winning ours."
"Don't you know there is a war on?"
"Yes," I replied, "we're winning ours."
Beaver.........
............. confirmed.
Some similarities between a Beaver and Single Pioneer but the latter was generally 'slimmer' in appearance and stood higher on its legs.
O-D
Some similarities between a Beaver and Single Pioneer but the latter was generally 'slimmer' in appearance and stood higher on its legs.
O-D
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Jig Peter
The RAF’s first operational helicopter unit was formed at Seletar in April 1950. ‘The Far East Air Force Casualty Evacuation Flight’ was equipped with Dragonfly Mk 2’s and the original pilots that manned that flight were Flight Lieutenant K Fry, Flight Lieutenant John Dowling and Flying Officer Allan Lee.
In 1953 the RAF started to introduce the Whirlwind into service in Malaya. At precisely the same time the French purchased Whirlwind Mk 2’s from Westland. These aircraft became the first practical helicopters that the French used against the Viet Minh in Indochina. The French used a mix of British and US S-55’s for casualty evacuation, during and after the epic Battle of Dien Bien Phu.
The French handed over 10 surviving S-55’s to the SVN Air Force when they quit Indochina. Some of the S-55’s that the French kept, were further developed into the first ‘Gunships’ The French were using the Whirlwind as a gunship in Algeria by the late 1950’s By 1960 the most experienced and most innovative military helicopter user was the Armee de l’Air.
The US took note of the French experience in Indochina and Algeria in developing the UH-1 Huey. By 1960 the XH-1A Huey was used for grenade launcher, rocket and machine gun tests. In the early 1960’s DARPA were working on several research projects and trialling them under combat conditions in South Vietnam. One of these projects resulted in the M-16 Rifle and another resulted in the Huey Gunship.
The scale of Viet Minh anti-aircraft fire around Dien Bien Phu in 1954 exceeded anything seen since World War Two. The Viet Minh and their successors, the Viet Cong, were adept antiaircraft gunners and were masters of the 12.7mm Machine Gun. The 12.7mm was being used against helicopters in South Vietnam by 1963 and three Helicopters were shot down in a single afternoon in January 1963 during the battle of Ap Bac. AFAIK the Indo’s attempted to set up only one .50 Calibre anti aircraft position along the border during the entire period of confrontation. By contrast the Viet Minh had downed their third Huey, but first from RPG fire by January 1964.
By 1964 the US had learned from and had regained the lead from the French in the operational use of military helicopters. The highpoint of the UK’s Far East forces integration with its SEATO allies also occurred in 1964, just prior to the election of Harold Wilson’s Labour Government in October 1964. It is not surprising that the high point of UK involvement in the Vietnam occurred at this time. In January 1964 one of the RAF’s most experienced helicopter pilots was on board one of DARPA’s experimental Huey gunships when it became the fourth Huey to crash in Vietnam.
Much as the US had learned the techniques of modern helicopter operations from the French, the UK were keen to learn the state of the art from the US. To this end, the by now Wing Commander, Allen Lee, one of the first pilots in the ‘Far East Air Force Casualty Evacuation Flight’ way back in 1950, was attached to the DARPA Gunship program.
Lee’s Huey UH-1B tail number 62-01880 suffered a tail rotor failure after a strafing run on Viet Cong positions in Kien Hoa Province. It is not known whether the cause of the tail rotor failure was due to enemy ground fire in reply or merely a mechanical mishap. 62-01880 crashed into the South China Sea.
Although three of the crew were rescued, conditions were extremely difficult. Both Lee and the US pilot Bryford Metoyer perished. An attempt to rescue both of them was made but Metoyer disappeared and Lee slipped from the grasp of the rescue helicopter crew and, he too disappeared. It is assumed that both were taken by sharks.
Whatever lessons that Lee learnt in Vietnam that might have been useful on the Kalimantan border died with him. By the time the UK committed to Borneo in confrontation, their helicopter airframes and operational art were still firmly entrenched in the 1950’s.
The Director of Borneo Operations seldom had more than two dozen helicopter to support his task. Of the entire helicopter assets assigned to Commonwealth Forces in the Far East the most suitable for the mission in Borneo were the Iroquois of RAAF 5 Squadron based at Butterworth. Why these were not made available to DOPOPs remains yet another RAAF mystery.
The airframes the UK did use in Borneo included the wholly unsuitable Belvedere. Two of the broadly comparable US CH-21 Shawnees had been shot down at Ap Bac back in 1963. The US was using their Shawnees at Ap Bac as assault helicopters. The principal advantage that the Shawnee exhibited over the Belvedere in this role was the fact that a step ladder was not required to disembark from a CH-21.
The Whirlwinds the British were still using in Borneo had by that time been retired from Vietnamese service. The Vietnamese air force was being re-equipped by hand me down US Marine Corps Wessex (S-58.s). UK Helicopter operations in Borneo in every respect were a generation behind what was occurring directly North across the South China Sea from Jesselton.
In my opinion, drawing comparisons between Borneo and Vietnam is extremely vexed.
The motivation of the average Viet Minh/Cong far exceeded that of any Indo insurgent. Old mate, Suparamen was no Superman, his heart wasn’t in it at all.
Think about this; What if the same thing happened in North Vietnam as occurred in Indonesia in 1965? Just say, in September 1965 General Giap in North Vietnam also pulls a Military Counter-Coup that results in half a million members of the Lao Dong party put to the machete.
Perhaps then the outcome for South Vietnam might have been the same as for Malaysia?
The leadership and resolution of the UK in standing up to Soekarno’s nonsense at a time when the UK could least afford it is really admirable. The UK’s record in decolonising Asia is second to none. But when it comes to UK helo ops during Confrontation, it is important not to make more of it than it was.
Cheers
Mick
The RAF’s first operational helicopter unit was formed at Seletar in April 1950. ‘The Far East Air Force Casualty Evacuation Flight’ was equipped with Dragonfly Mk 2’s and the original pilots that manned that flight were Flight Lieutenant K Fry, Flight Lieutenant John Dowling and Flying Officer Allan Lee.
In 1953 the RAF started to introduce the Whirlwind into service in Malaya. At precisely the same time the French purchased Whirlwind Mk 2’s from Westland. These aircraft became the first practical helicopters that the French used against the Viet Minh in Indochina. The French used a mix of British and US S-55’s for casualty evacuation, during and after the epic Battle of Dien Bien Phu.
The French handed over 10 surviving S-55’s to the SVN Air Force when they quit Indochina. Some of the S-55’s that the French kept, were further developed into the first ‘Gunships’ The French were using the Whirlwind as a gunship in Algeria by the late 1950’s By 1960 the most experienced and most innovative military helicopter user was the Armee de l’Air.
The US took note of the French experience in Indochina and Algeria in developing the UH-1 Huey. By 1960 the XH-1A Huey was used for grenade launcher, rocket and machine gun tests. In the early 1960’s DARPA were working on several research projects and trialling them under combat conditions in South Vietnam. One of these projects resulted in the M-16 Rifle and another resulted in the Huey Gunship.
The scale of Viet Minh anti-aircraft fire around Dien Bien Phu in 1954 exceeded anything seen since World War Two. The Viet Minh and their successors, the Viet Cong, were adept antiaircraft gunners and were masters of the 12.7mm Machine Gun. The 12.7mm was being used against helicopters in South Vietnam by 1963 and three Helicopters were shot down in a single afternoon in January 1963 during the battle of Ap Bac. AFAIK the Indo’s attempted to set up only one .50 Calibre anti aircraft position along the border during the entire period of confrontation. By contrast the Viet Minh had downed their third Huey, but first from RPG fire by January 1964.
By 1964 the US had learned from and had regained the lead from the French in the operational use of military helicopters. The highpoint of the UK’s Far East forces integration with its SEATO allies also occurred in 1964, just prior to the election of Harold Wilson’s Labour Government in October 1964. It is not surprising that the high point of UK involvement in the Vietnam occurred at this time. In January 1964 one of the RAF’s most experienced helicopter pilots was on board one of DARPA’s experimental Huey gunships when it became the fourth Huey to crash in Vietnam.
Much as the US had learned the techniques of modern helicopter operations from the French, the UK were keen to learn the state of the art from the US. To this end, the by now Wing Commander, Allen Lee, one of the first pilots in the ‘Far East Air Force Casualty Evacuation Flight’ way back in 1950, was attached to the DARPA Gunship program.
Lee’s Huey UH-1B tail number 62-01880 suffered a tail rotor failure after a strafing run on Viet Cong positions in Kien Hoa Province. It is not known whether the cause of the tail rotor failure was due to enemy ground fire in reply or merely a mechanical mishap. 62-01880 crashed into the South China Sea.
Although three of the crew were rescued, conditions were extremely difficult. Both Lee and the US pilot Bryford Metoyer perished. An attempt to rescue both of them was made but Metoyer disappeared and Lee slipped from the grasp of the rescue helicopter crew and, he too disappeared. It is assumed that both were taken by sharks.
Whatever lessons that Lee learnt in Vietnam that might have been useful on the Kalimantan border died with him. By the time the UK committed to Borneo in confrontation, their helicopter airframes and operational art were still firmly entrenched in the 1950’s.
The Director of Borneo Operations seldom had more than two dozen helicopter to support his task. Of the entire helicopter assets assigned to Commonwealth Forces in the Far East the most suitable for the mission in Borneo were the Iroquois of RAAF 5 Squadron based at Butterworth. Why these were not made available to DOPOPs remains yet another RAAF mystery.
The airframes the UK did use in Borneo included the wholly unsuitable Belvedere. Two of the broadly comparable US CH-21 Shawnees had been shot down at Ap Bac back in 1963. The US was using their Shawnees at Ap Bac as assault helicopters. The principal advantage that the Shawnee exhibited over the Belvedere in this role was the fact that a step ladder was not required to disembark from a CH-21.
The Whirlwinds the British were still using in Borneo had by that time been retired from Vietnamese service. The Vietnamese air force was being re-equipped by hand me down US Marine Corps Wessex (S-58.s). UK Helicopter operations in Borneo in every respect were a generation behind what was occurring directly North across the South China Sea from Jesselton.
In my opinion, drawing comparisons between Borneo and Vietnam is extremely vexed.
The motivation of the average Viet Minh/Cong far exceeded that of any Indo insurgent. Old mate, Suparamen was no Superman, his heart wasn’t in it at all.
Think about this; What if the same thing happened in North Vietnam as occurred in Indonesia in 1965? Just say, in September 1965 General Giap in North Vietnam also pulls a Military Counter-Coup that results in half a million members of the Lao Dong party put to the machete.
Perhaps then the outcome for South Vietnam might have been the same as for Malaysia?
The leadership and resolution of the UK in standing up to Soekarno’s nonsense at a time when the UK could least afford it is really admirable. The UK’s record in decolonising Asia is second to none. But when it comes to UK helo ops during Confrontation, it is important not to make more of it than it was.
Cheers
Mick
Austers,Beavers,Scouts and Bell 47 were operated by AAC,although some RMs had B47s as well..
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@ chippymick
Thanks for your informative reply, Mick. With the usual lack of resources, the RAF saw itself from WW2 onwards as obliged to concentrate on Bomber and Fighter Commands, followed by the Maritime and Transport efforts. Helocopters werrte definitely viewed as a "bad career choice" (in the '50s, I'm talking about) even though any Soviet moves on West Germany would have involved large numbers of rotorcraft and iit seemed to me that this aspect of aviation was being severely neglected by the Powers in Whitehall. ("You can't have everything, dear boy - in fact we can't have much of anything" sort of thing - a theme still being sung today).
What the helicopter people did in Borneo was, though, vital in keeping the Army's people mobile and supplied - even with such "odd" equipment as the poor Belvedere, whose dire background you'll be aware of. Not much, if any, shooting from them, though (? Not a mainstream activity ?). With excellent STOL aircraft like the ""up-tilted tail" version of the Andover and the Single and Twin Pins, plus the choppers, the job got done - and when Confrontation was over, the fixed and rotary wing aircraft were summarily disposed of: "Surplus to Requirements, old chap".
But the end result was that Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia were able to develop outside the Communist influence, which, although H.Wilson Esq reckoned the whole thing had been too expensive to be contemplated ever again, was the object of the exercise.
Reminds me of a Tom Holt character's "Blessed are the cheapskates, for they shall see their god and still have change from a 5-pound note".
Cheers,
JP
What the helicopter people did in Borneo was, though, vital in keeping the Army's people mobile and supplied - even with such "odd" equipment as the poor Belvedere, whose dire background you'll be aware of. Not much, if any, shooting from them, though (? Not a mainstream activity ?). With excellent STOL aircraft like the ""up-tilted tail" version of the Andover and the Single and Twin Pins, plus the choppers, the job got done - and when Confrontation was over, the fixed and rotary wing aircraft were summarily disposed of: "Surplus to Requirements, old chap".
But the end result was that Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia were able to develop outside the Communist influence, which, although H.Wilson Esq reckoned the whole thing had been too expensive to be contemplated ever again, was the object of the exercise.
Reminds me of a Tom Holt character's "Blessed are the cheapskates, for they shall see their god and still have change from a 5-pound note".
Cheers,
JP